Re: Carbureted 6.1 based 426 Hemi intake options.
[Re: Cpearce]
#3286846
02/03/25 11:35 AM
02/03/25 11:35 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,101 Salem
Grizzly
Moparts Proctologist
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Moparts Proctologist
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,101
Salem
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Yes, I read Tay and Ric's comments with great interest. All aftermarket intake manifolds have their drawbacks, the Factory knows exactly what they are doing. The active intakes on the new Hemis are Engineering Genius that work.
The dyno torque curve doesn't lie on the Edelbrock and the long runner factory intakes. Unless you plan plenty of trips over 6000 rpm, for carburetor application, the Edelbrock is better. HP per ci you would be setting at 590 and 570 (single vs Edelbrock) at 426 ci.
For 20hp at the top end difference, I'd take the 20 to 50 lb/ft bottom-end torque all day long over the single planes. And, in my experience, if there's one thing a Gen 3 Hemi needs help, it's in the Torque Department.
Just opinion, but with those W2's, I'd be looking at a 4.25" stroke upgrade to what you have now. You're probably 550hp now, turn it into a 438 and you should be 600 to 680 capable hp. The Gen 3 will do it, but what is this going to cost you?
Mo' Farts
Moderated by "tbagger".
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Re: Carbureted 6.1 based 426 Hemi intake options.
[Re: ric3xrt]
#3287465
02/05/25 06:11 PM
02/05/25 06:11 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,201 CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,201
CT
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Something to chew on,
This Dyno sheet is of the 380CI 2005 5.7Block build (3.937X3.90), that’s in my 04 fat a$$ SLT ram , this past summer truck ran a best of 10.59 ,128MPH with pass at Island in Nj and Maple grove in Pa it ran a best of 10.65 @ 128mph , all on 93oct , truck is 4400lbs race weight , 1st pass is normally 10.70s @ 120s ,
Engine management system is the OEM 04 NGC3 ,Trans is a 727 all the normal 727 upgrades, 4500 stall, 4.88’s in a 9.25 rear with ford 9in ends(to eliminate the c-clips) Calvert GM1500 split leaf springs, Caltrac bars.
Engine , all parts were left over from different projects ,
Winberg crank , Honda 1.88dia rod journal , Pankl 6.24 C to C rods, J&E pistons with 12.5cc dome,.787 Pin DIA Pin height is 1.05, .009 deck clearance with .028 thick head gasket. 12.9 to 1 compression.
Eagle heads, 2.125X6mm Titanium intake valve, 1.60X8mm stainless exhaust valve. Chambers were enlarged to 74CC by “soften” the flat , basically a 5 degree pitch from the chamber to the head gasket DIA(3.95). upper part of the exhaust port was matched to a 1 ¾ round header tube, while the flat of the “D” shape was left alone. On the Intake side, floor was lowered by roughly 1/8th inch to the short side, sides were welded up to match pushrod pinch and the roof was filled in to remove the Spring pocket from the path of air flow. Intake port opening is 1.64X2.05 matched to a welded up Drag pak 4500, Fuel Injectors moved up about an inch higher on the runner, when I made the port opening in the head smaller , the OEM Injector path was blocked. that's how far the roof is lowered compared to stock. .....All said and done Flow is 340/240 at .650 lift.
Cam is custom grind, .635/.620 240/240 @ .050 112 LSA installed at 108. IN opens 4 BDTC, IN Closes 40 ABDC, EX opens 53 BBDC, EX closes 1 ATDC.
. this pile of used dyno mule's parts is 1.86HP/CI on pump 93. This is just silly with a cam that small, and even more impressive at that weight. How much timing are you running and are you fuel/detonation limited at all?
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: Carbureted 6.1 based 426 Hemi intake options.
[Re: Cpearce]
#3288054
02/08/25 08:22 AM
02/08/25 08:22 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,407 Trumbauersville PA
ric3xrt
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,407
Trumbauersville PA
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I'm kind of wondering if a 110-112 might be a good range for LSA? As I did with my last build, I will contact a few grinders for their opinion. 109-112 LSA is fine, @ 426/431ci, the wider LSA are more "streetable" and still make good power under 7kRPMs , from 7kRPM to “we need a dry sump system” tighter 108-104 are better choices. The SRT392, Hellcat/Demon ,6.1srt are all 121-123 LSA and are “negative” overlap(-XX) cams, Exhaust closes anywhere between 5 and 24 degrees before Intake opens, the truck cams are 117&121. One of the great things about the G3 HEMI is it doesn’t need the exhaust to “help” the intake charge make peak power between 5500-7200RPMs , above 7200 it starts helping …Next time you can, take a look down the Intake port of a G3 head , that old saying “ a straight line is the fastest between two points” will come to mind, no need for the scavenge effect to pull a column of air around a 75some odd degree turn. If we look at the 351C 4v head, with a 2.19 valve they flow 300-312CFM at .600, (426 Street hemi with 2.25 valve flow 320CFM @ .600 ) , fast forward to 2009 , a 5.7 Eagle head, with a 2.05 valve flows 300@ .600. Both engines will make 500hp with out port work, take a stock junkyard 09+ 5.7HEMI toss in a Texas Speed Stage 4 NA cam (226/235 .585 lift ,114LSA,111 ICL , (2 degrees overlap) , a Prefix single plane intake, 750cfm Holley ,MSD-Hemi 6 box , 18degrees of timing and Congrats you're making the same power as a OEM LS7(granted you’re spotting the LS7 82 CI and 25FTlbs Tq, while hitting 505 Hp some 300RPMs less.) FWIW the 7.0L LS7 cam is 211/230 @ 050 .593/.588 121LSA 119 ICL -22 overlap , *351C needs .600+ lift and roughly 22degree Intake-exhaust valve overlap to hit that 500-515hp*. Earlier this week I was testing Texas speed’s VVT NA stroker cams, TSP claims 700hp with their stage 1 & 715hp for their stage 2 cam, their test mule was one of their 426ci(4.09X4.05) short blocks ,11.3 to 1 , a Hi-ram with a 102mm TB , their CNC ported Apache/BGE head Both TSP cams are .622/.618 lift , stage 1 is 238/253 @ .050 , 110 LSA installed @ 109, 25degrees overlap, stage 2 is 247/259 @ .050 and 112 LSA installed at 110 , 28 degrees overlap.…..the test mule I used was 426.7CI(4.095X4.05) ,11.9 to 1, Hi-ram/w90mm TB & Frankenstein CNC ported BGE heads. Stage 1 cam hit 690 hp and stage 2 hit 710hp, Bigger Throttle body and both cams will make more HP. Now for comparison , Howards 786965-13 is 626/600 231/237 @ .050 and 113LSA, ICL is 109 and overlap is 7 degrees , now I know it'll make 695-725 In a 426ci G3 with typical CNC ported Apace/BGE heads 11.5-12.0 to 1, the better the induction the higher the Power..... point I'm making is all 3 of these cams are 109/110 ICL , overlap is anywhere between 7 and 28 degrees. while TSP Stage1 and Howards 786965-13 their respective IVC #s are 48 vs 45 and EVO is 58 vs 56 , all things being equal they'll make roughly 700hp in " identical builds" With any luck later on today I’m going to grind copies of the TSP cams on to Non-VVT cores and Next week run them in a 423ci(4.075X4.05) 6.1 block build with Katech cnc ported BGE heads, stock valve sizes , (Manley Pro Flow intake and Ferrea exhaust valves). 11 to 1 compression, Ritter Intake and a Wilson 4150 Throttle body, Holley terminator system. Keep in mind, I'm lucky enough to have my current Superflow 902 since 2019( my old 901 is in my neighbors garage), I grind my own Camshafts(EMAG SN320), bore my own blocks(Rottler F69A) and have been very busy blowing stuff up in my retirement.
Truth has no agenda, but those with an agenda make their own truth.
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Re: Carbureted 6.1 based 426 Hemi intake options.
[Re: GTX MATT]
#3288072
02/08/25 09:39 AM
02/08/25 09:39 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,407 Trumbauersville PA
ric3xrt
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,407
Trumbauersville PA
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This is just silly with a cam that small, and even more impressive at that weight. How much timing are you running and are you fuel/detonation limited at all?
I can get away with 20 on 93oct , only because of the "soften" chamber, with stock Eagle head 65cc chamber it was over 13.5 to 1 and timing was limited to 10* on 93. Same cam profile in a 380ci with Icon pistons 13cc dome roughly 12 to1 with Edelbrock 74CC heads ( combo = 3.937 bore ,1.165ph , 6.125 C to C rods and Molnar 3.90 stroke/ 2in pin) , Holley Hi-Ram and a 105mm tb topped out around 640hp on 93 and total of 18degrees , made 650 on 100oct with total of 20 degrees, 24 it was pinging 22 didn't make any more HP. I wanted to try a set of 67CC Eddys and rolling the edge of the chamber to a 1/4 radius , just never got around to it The light rotating assembly/intake ports and the chambers are what gets it to 700. Both the Eagle and Apache/BGE head benefit from rolling the edge of flat in the chamber (or breaking the edge) to a small radius or chamfer, especially in the smaller bore builds and anything with a dome piston. the attachment is the HP tuners WOT timing table I use for 93 in that 04 Ram.
 WOT TABLE.jpg)
Last edited by ric3xrt; 02/08/25 09:43 AM.
Truth has no agenda, but those with an agenda make their own truth.
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