Engine doesn't start with key in start position
#3261229
10/01/24 01:39 PM
10/01/24 01:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Irving, TX
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Here's a fun one...
1971 Imperial with an early 90s era Mopar electronic ignition retrofit kit. Yes, the old orange box that still works.
The car has been performing beautifully. It fired up at the first twist of the key. I drove it about 20 minutes and the car didn't want to restart. Now, it will only start when I release the key. Or, if I put the key in the run position and jump the solenoid.
Yes, the single row ballast resistor is good. 1.5 ohm as designed, otherwise it would die when I released the key.
I removed the starter solenoid wire to reduce voltage draw. Testing wires at the ballast resistor I get 12.3 volts at the brown (start) wire with the key in start. No voltage with key in run. Blue (run) wire shows 11 volts in run and nothing in start. A bit low but it functions fine.
I pulled the bulkhead connector and cleaned the already pretty clean terminals on both sides.
No change.
Ignition switch is good.
Wiring is good.
Terminals are good.
Battery is good (a week old).
Why won't it start properly with the key?
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: Engine doesn't start with key in start position
[Re: feets]
#3261253
10/01/24 02:54 PM
10/01/24 02:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,902
Omaha Ne
TJP
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I Live Here
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Here's a fun one...
1971 Imperial with an early 90s era Mopar electronic ignition retrofit kit. Yes, the old orange box that still works.
The car has been performing beautifully. It fired up at the first twist of the key. I drove it about 20 minutes and the car didn't want to restart. Now, it will only start when I release the key. Or, if I put the key in the run position and jump the solenoid.
Yes, the single row ballast resistor is good. 1.5 ohm as designed, otherwise it would die when I released the key.
I removed the starter solenoid wire to reduce voltage draw. Testing wires at the ballast resistor I get 12.3 volts at the brown (start) wire with the key in start. No voltage with key in run. Blue (run) wire shows 11 volts in run and nothing in start. A bit low but it functions fine.
I pulled the bulkhead connector and cleaned the already pretty clean terminals on both sides.
No change.
Ignition switch is good.
Wiring is good.
Terminals are good.
Battery is good (a week old).
Why won't it start properly with the key? You are checking V at the ballast output terminal, have you checked V at the coil? Seems like that 12.3V isn't getting to the coil. Possibly a bad crimp? Could try a jumper to the coil Also verify the module is getting 12V as I've had a few that were wired to the wrong side of the ballast  Next check your grounds and possibly even run a ground wire from the block to the module keep us posted 
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Re: Engine doesn't start with key in start position
[Re: TJP]
#3261269
10/01/24 04:10 PM
10/01/24 04:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,113
Irving, TX
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You are checking V at the ballast output terminal, have you checked V at the coil? Seems like that 12.3V isn't getting to the coil. Possibly a bad crimp? Could try a jumper to the coil Also verify the module is getting 12V as I've had a few that were wired to the wrong side of the ballast Next check your grounds and possibly even run a ground wire from the block to the module keep us posted Voltage at the coil is good, otherwise it wouldn't run. Ignition 2 (start) bypasses the resistor and shoots voltage to the coil. Ignition 1 (run) goes through the ballast resistor, down the same connection used by Ignition 2, and to the coil. If the coil lead was faulty the lower voltage from the ballast resistor wouldn't make the engine run. Grounds have got to be good because the engine runs. System is wired properly because I've been driving the car all over town. The Ignition 2 issue just popped up. The car still runs, you just have to hope it catches on key release or jump the solenoid.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: Engine doesn't start with key in start position
[Re: feets]
#3261277
10/01/24 04:44 PM
10/01/24 04:44 PM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,531
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Sniper
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You are checking V at the ballast output terminal, have you checked V at the coil? Seems like that 12.3V isn't getting to the coil. Possibly a bad crimp? Could try a jumper to the coil Also verify the module is getting 12V as I've had a few that were wired to the wrong side of the ballast Next check your grounds and possibly even run a ground wire from the block to the module keep us posted Voltage at the coil is good, otherwise it wouldn't run. Ignition 2 (start) bypasses the resistor and shoots voltage to the coil. Ignition 1 (run) goes through the ballast resistor, down the same connection used by Ignition 2, and to the coil. If the coil lead was faulty the lower voltage from the ballast resistor wouldn't make the engine run. Grounds have got to be good because the engine runs. System is wired properly because I've been driving the car all over town. The Ignition 2 issue just popped up. The car still runs, you just have to hope it catches on key release or jump the solenoid. Did you verify that Ignition 2 is making it to the coil with the key in start? Because that is only handled by the ignition switch and the bit of wire that goes from Ign 2 to the ballast, coil side of the ballast to bypass it. As for the rest of the things, do not assume anything. Electricity can be real weird and do odd things when grounds are bad or connections are poor.
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Re: Engine doesn't start with key in start position
[Re: Sniper]
#3261288
10/01/24 05:36 PM
10/01/24 05:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Irving, TX
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I did not ohm out the ign 2 wire between the ballast and coil. It's the same piece of wire that runs the coil on lower voltage from ign 1. The engine runs so that section of wire is good.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: Engine doesn't start with key in start position
[Re: feets]
#3261295
10/01/24 06:17 PM
10/01/24 06:17 PM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,531
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Sniper
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I did not ohm out the ign 2 wire between the ballast and coil. It's the same piece of wire that runs the coil on lower voltage from ign 1. The engine runs so that section of wire is good. Not talking about that wire. Talking about the one from the ignition switch to the coil side of the ballast. In start, what is the voltage at the coil? If it's not there work your way back till you find it, ultimately it comes out of the ignition switch. It may very well be a case of your starter loading down the system so much there is not enough juice for the coil to work, but once you release the key the voltage goes up enough to fire the coil.
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Re: Engine doesn't start with key in start position
[Re: maxwedge1]
#3261313
10/01/24 07:36 PM
10/01/24 07:36 PM
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Irving, TX
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if all wiring and voltages check out ok replace the magnetic pickup...i have twice had the problem you described and the pickup cured it. That would be a bit unusual for direct voltage to not work but indirect voltage works.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: Engine doesn't start with key in start position
[Re: Sniper]
#3261318
10/01/24 08:00 PM
10/01/24 08:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Irving, TX
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Not talking about that wire. Talking about the one from the ignition switch to the coil side of the ballast. In start, what is the voltage at the coil? If it's not there work your way back till you find it, ultimately it comes out of the ignition switch.
It may very well be a case of your starter loading down the system so much there is not enough juice for the coil to work, but once you release the key the voltage goes up enough to fire the coil.
If I put the key in the run position and jump the starter the engine fires up immediately. That would negate the starter draw idea. It should also negate the wire from the ballast resistor to the coil since that part of the wire is used in both situations. The start wire shows 12 volts at the ballast resistor when the key is turned.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: Engine doesn't start with key in start position
[Re: feets]
#3261353
10/01/24 10:03 PM
10/01/24 10:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,902
Omaha Ne
TJP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Omaha Ne
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You are checking V at the ballast output terminal, have you checked V at the coil? Seems like that 12.3V isn't getting to the coil. Possibly a bad crimp?
Could try a jumper to the coilAlso verify the module is getting 12V as I've had a few that were wired to the wrong side of the ballast that caused intermittent no start issues;) Next check your grounds and possibly even run a ground wire from the block to the module keep us posted Voltage at the coil is good, otherwise it wouldn't run. Ignition 2 (start) bypasses the resistor and shoots voltage to the coil. Ignition 1 (run) goes through the ballast resistor, down the same connection used by Ignition 2, and to the coil. If the coil lead was faulty the lower voltage from the ballast resistor wouldn't make the engine run. Grounds have got to be good because the engine runs. System is wired properly because I've been driving the car all over town. The Ignition 2 issue just popped up. The car still runs, you just have to hope it catches on key release or jump the solenoid. I know all of that and agree, but your symptoms indicate power is not getting to the coil in the START position or their is another issue IE: Ground, Module wiring, Voltage drop (A lot of batteries are doing strange things these days), possible pickup coil as mentioned, that sounds strange but so is the problem. The best part is it sounds like a SOLID fail vs intermittent. keep us posted
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Re: Engine doesn't start with key in start position
[Re: TJP]
#3261356
10/01/24 10:11 PM
10/01/24 10:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,113
Irving, TX
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Veddy interesting...
The car fired up as I released the key this evening so I took the car to dinner.
After dinner the car was hard to start. I finally got it started but as I was getting ready to leave it died. The car would not restart. There was another ignition box in the trunk. The box was marked "good ECU". I popped it in and the car started normally.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: Engine doesn't start with key in start position
[Re: AndyF]
#3261980
10/04/24 03:26 PM
10/04/24 03:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,113
Irving, TX
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Yeah, I should have clarified. No spark condition.
This morning I got no starter. Jumping the relay got the starter. Turning the key gave me 12 volts at the start wire going to the relay but no start. Pumping 12 volts into the switch terminal on the relay gave me a starter.
Cycling the shifter lever brought back normal function.
Now, the tenp gauge doesn't work. 🙄
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: Engine doesn't start with key in start position
[Re: AndyF]
#3262465
10/07/24 11:43 AM
10/07/24 11:43 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Irving, TX
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Sounds like you have multiple problems going on. Or perhaps, just one really bad ground connection somewhere. All part of the fun of a new to me car. The temp sending unit tests good. The wire from the unit to the bulkhead is good. I'll have to get under the dash and check for a good signal coming through there.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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