Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
cam advice #3133071
03/28/23 05:26 PM
03/28/23 05:26 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 171
louisiana
M
musclecarman15 Offline OP
member
musclecarman15  Offline OP
member
M

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 171
louisiana
need cam advice...building stroked 383(3.75 stroke),30 over block,pistons flat top with 4cc valve relief,(440 source kit,with balancing and special bearings), 346 heads(they have been CnC ported,2.14,1.81 valves,unshrouded,milled .007,etc,),ductile iron adjustable 1.5 bushed rocker setup by rocker specialities,stock intake has been extrude honed,original holley carb has been blueprinted , stock high performance exhaust manifolds and ecs correct exhaust system,blueprinted oil pump and distributor,steel shim(.020 )head gasket,stock oil pan and valve covers,fuel pump,balancer,factory 727 automatic trans with 3.23 gears,engine in 71 cuda convertible with air conditioning and power brakes,etc(need vacuum)want low end torque...pistons .025 in hole, want to use hydraulic flat tappet cam...like xe 525....need opinions....car is original so want to maintain original look for engine componets...thx keith

Re: cam advice [Re: musclecarman15] #3133075
03/28/23 05:46 PM
03/28/23 05:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
L
lewtot184 Offline
master
lewtot184  Offline
master
L

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
if you mean a comp cams "hi-lift 275/287" i don't think it will give you the vacuum you'll want. rocker ratio will come into play and of all the crane iron 1.5's i've ever had they'll be right at 1.6. this is significant when using a hydraulic cam. i'd think about something a little more conservative especially with cast manifolds.

Re: cam advice [Re: musclecarman15] #3133100
03/28/23 07:43 PM
03/28/23 07:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,990
s. e. pa.
C
calrobb2000 Offline
top fuel
calrobb2000  Offline
top fuel
C

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,990
s. e. pa.

hi

you left out head chamber cc .

need this to fig comp ratio .

this will help with cam selection .

prob mopar 280 /480 will work

do NOT use the 284 / 484 < low vac >

Re: cam advice [Re: calrobb2000] #3133122
03/28/23 09:10 PM
03/28/23 09:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,726
A collage of whims
topside Offline
Too Many Posts
topside  Offline
Too Many Posts

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,726
A collage of whims
I'm a fan of Engle's hydraulic FT cams - haven't heard of issues like Comp apparently has.
My 406" SB street Duster with AC ran K54 intake lobe (214 @.050, .470 lift) & K56 exhaust (224 & .504) - plenty of vacuum, great throttle response, and sounded meaner than it was.
For my 448" RB street B-body, scaled up to K56 (224/.504) Intake and K58 (230/.520) Exhaust; same effect, though a 4-speed non-AC car.
Can't recall if 110 or 112 LC, though. Worth a call to Engle for their advice.
Johnson EDM lifters in both, zero problems.
406 was iron head @ 9.5:1CR, a bit marginal on octane until I dialed some timing out; 448 had Eddy heads & 10.3 CR, perfectly happy on pump 92.
As stated, CR matters on pump gas street cars; ya need to measure that.

FWIW, K60 is 238/.534.
Those are their older grind #s; their numbering has changed, but last I heard they'll grind whatever they've made in the past.

Re: cam advice [Re: topside] #3133141
03/28/23 10:22 PM
03/28/23 10:22 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 171
louisiana
M
musclecarman15 Offline OP
member
musclecarman15  Offline OP
member
M

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 171
louisiana
Heads cc in at 88...cam I was looking at is 231/237 at 50 with 110 lobe separation to keep the torque band down low

Re: cam advice [Re: musclecarman15] #3133145
03/28/23 10:40 PM
03/28/23 10:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,989
Oregon
A
AndyF Offline
I Win
AndyF  Offline
I Win
A

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,989
Oregon
Pick something on the small side and keep the overlap low. You have to be really careful with cam selection when running exhaust manifolds. If the cam is too big the back pressure from the manifolds will cause reversion and bottom end torque will suffer. To make matters worse, the big cam won't make more power up top either.

On the flip side if you go with too small of a cam then the torque will be great and you'll only give up a small amount of top end power. I used to do a lot of cam testing before I figured out that it was costing me a fortune and I wasn't getting paid for it!

http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/bb/Lobe.html

Re: cam advice [Re: AndyF] #3133196
03/29/23 08:13 AM
03/29/23 08:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
L
lewtot184 Offline
master
lewtot184  Offline
master
L

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
i've been messing with a similar combo in one of my cars for several years trying to find a sweet spot; still searching. my engine is a stock 440 and basically your putting together a physically smaller 426-440 wedge. my car has a midland ross power brake booster and it just doesn't like anything 15" of idle vacuum or less. the booster does fine with 16"-17" of vacuum at idle. the cams I've tried thru the years are the stock magnum, comp cams 21-305-4, 272/.455 mopar, hughs/engle 23/30 and summit 6401. the comp cams cam will make vacuum but runs out of steam rather quickly (probably due to 106cl installed). the 272 mopar looses vacuum, summit and engle even more. going from a true 1.5 rocker to a true 1.6 rocker will loose 1" of vacuum. the faster the lobe profile with the same duration will loose some vaccum. currently i have the stock mopar cam (actually a sealed power cs661, same as stock) in the engine and vacuum is up, brakes work, drives nicely, but performance has been better. that 275hl is going to give you about .560" lift at the valve, about 15 degrees overlap at .050" (something i'd never do with stock parts).

if you insist on the 275 type cam i'd suggest an xe274 ground on something like a 113 or 114lsa. the 275 is a 274 with the added area under the curve that a 274 has with 1.6 rocker. with all the tappet/cam problems people are having i'd error towards the gentler side. the faster the lobe, the higher the rocker ratio the more spring you need. the more spring you have can kill a hydraulic tappet and cause lobe failure.

Re: cam advice [Re: lewtot184] #3133199
03/29/23 08:38 AM
03/29/23 08:38 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,870
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize Offline
master
Streetwize  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,870
Weddington, N.C.
If they still have it available the Crower HDP 271 is a great cam it's like 224/232 @.050 and .486/496 lift on 112 in at 108

Everybody I've ever recommended that cam to loves it.

BTW: The vaccuum pump from a Chevy cobalt 1.4 turbo makes for a great brake booster. I run one on my Rocky drag car. You can find them cheap on Ebag

Last edited by Streetwize; 03/29/23 08:55 AM.

WIZE

World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI

In Car:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0
Re: cam advice [Re: musclecarman15] #3133200
03/29/23 08:42 AM
03/29/23 08:42 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646
Ontario,Canada
F
firefighter3931 Offline
top fuel
firefighter3931  Offline
top fuel
F

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646
Ontario,Canada
The Crower HDP271 grind would be a good match for that build with restrictive (HP manifold) exhaust. up

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cro-32242

Edit : treed by Streetwise ! cool

Ron

Last edited by firefighter3931; 03/29/23 08:44 AM.
Re: cam advice [Re: firefighter3931] #3133229
03/29/23 10:24 AM
03/29/23 10:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
L
lewtot184 Offline
master
lewtot184  Offline
master
L

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
looking at the 440source website it shows some compression ratios in the low nines which is what i have. anymore i look at overlap at .050" for these scenarios. a stock cam is -11 degrees at .050". from the cams i've used I've found anything at zero degrees and above will noticeably effect low rpm vacuum. the summit 6401 has about +1 degree overlap at .050" but can reduce idle vacuum by 2". the mopar 272 has zero degrees at .050" and will reduce vacuum. my favorite performer was the engle 2330 but at 110lsa it will noticeably reduce vacuum at idle. adding a higher ratio rocker to a stock cam will add some area under the curve plus some lift but will reduce vacuum a little. enhancing the timing curve only marginally helped vacuum. there're no free lunches here or magical cams. it all needs to be thought out. of course, a vacuum reservoir canister can be added; i just couldn't find a decent place for the black lump in my engine bay.

Re: cam advice [Re: lewtot184] #3133255
03/29/23 11:48 AM
03/29/23 11:48 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 171
louisiana
M
musclecarman15 Offline OP
member
musclecarman15  Offline OP
member
M

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 171
louisiana
thanks everyone on the advice...first i have a 1.5 rocker ratio as i had rocker specialities blueprint and true my rockers up, yes in need vacuum for power brakes and ac and dont want to use a pump,so i believe i will move my lobe seperation to 112, and my compression ratio should be in 9.2 to 9.4 range with the steel shim head gasket....next question becomes to go with a 224/230 or a 230/236 at 50 cam. remember my heads have been CNC ported,2.14/1.81 valves,etc.....thx everyone keith

Re: cam advice [Re: musclecarman15] #3133268
03/29/23 12:25 PM
03/29/23 12:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
L
lewtot184 Offline
master
lewtot184  Offline
master
L

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
Originally Posted by musclecarman15
thanks everyone on the advice...first i have a 1.5 rocker ratio as i had rocker specialities blueprint and true my rockers up, yes in need vacuum for power brakes and ac and dont want to use a pump,so i believe i will move my lobe seperation to 112, and my compression ratio should be in 9.2 to 9.4 range with the steel shim head gasket....next question becomes to go with a 224/230 or a 230/236 at 50 cam. remember my heads have been CNC ported,2.14/1.81 valves,etc.....thx everyone keith
neither. going from 110 to 112 isn't going to buy you that much. i've found that increasing overlap by 5-6 degrees at .050" will reduce vacuum by 1". i'm pretty sure that rocker specialties doesn't correct ratio. to do that means moving the adjuster location. find a way to check your rocker ratio before assuming it's correct. the scrub pattern on those iron rockers is fairly long when compared to a roller, and the more lift you have means more scrub travel. be sure to check geometry.

Re: cam advice [Re: lewtot184] #3133289
03/29/23 01:16 PM
03/29/23 01:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,870
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize Offline
master
Streetwize  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,870
Weddington, N.C.
A Cuda with 3.23 gears I'd go with the Crower 271 hdp because I know it works well.

It's basically one step hotter than a 440 magnum cam and it'll give you more torque and roll on power without killing drivability. If you were running shorty headers or a little more compression and a better intake I'd go up to the Comp 232/237 or the old Ultradyne 231/239 but honestly that Crower is a great cam.


WIZE

World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI

In Car:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0
Re: cam advice [Re: Streetwize] #3133449
03/29/23 07:16 PM
03/29/23 07:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646
Ontario,Canada
F
firefighter3931 Offline
top fuel
firefighter3931  Offline
top fuel
F

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646
Ontario,Canada
Originally Posted by Streetwize
A Cuda with 3.23 gears I'd go with the Crower 271 hdp because I know it works well.

It's basically one step hotter than a 440 magnum cam and it'll give you more torque and roll on power without killing drivability. If you were running shorty headers or a little more compression and a better intake I'd go up to the Comp 232/237 or the old Ultradyne 231/239 but honestly that Crower is a great cam.


Agreed up

We installed this cam in my buddy's 67 Charger ; 440 with 9.2:1 compression, CH4B intake, 750DP, HP ex manifolds, 2.5in exhaust with UltraFlo mufflers, 12in factory TQ converter, 3.55 SG running 275/60's out back. No problemo boiling the hides and pulled really hard to 5800 rpm. Recurved the distributor for 16* base timing and 36* all in @ 2500. Idle vacuum was 18-19 hg @ 900rpm idle. Power brakes worked like a charm. Has a nice mild rumble at idle as well.

Ron

Re: cam advice [Re: musclecarman15] #3133459
03/29/23 07:38 PM
03/29/23 07:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,810
Sobieski Wi
B
bee1971 Offline
master
bee1971  Offline
master
B

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,810
Sobieski Wi
Motor that I built
Factory block

383 / 432 .030 over
3.75 Crank
10.4 - 1 Compression

440 Source Kit

Edelbrock E Street 75CC Heads

Comp Cams XE275 HL Cam and Lifters

200 PSI Cold Cranking on all 8 cylinders

16 initial - 18 Mechanical - All in by 2400 RPMs
Run ported vacuum advance on the street

Edelbrock AVS2 800 - Rejetted on the mains and rods

Idles at 650/700 RPMs all day long - 13.5" Vacuum
Factory power brakes , disc front , zero issues

Never mind the wrong dancing dipstick

Been running for about five years now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjFG6l_Whh8




Last edited by bee1971; 03/29/23 08:04 PM.

1971 Dodge Charger Superbee
2011 Ram Sport 1500 Quad Cab Deep Water Blue Loaded
Siberian Huskies
Re: cam advice [Re: lewtot184] #3133463
03/29/23 07:58 PM
03/29/23 07:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,810
Sobieski Wi
B
bee1971 Offline
master
bee1971  Offline
master
B

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,810
Sobieski Wi
Originally Posted by lewtot184
i've been messing with a similar combo in one of my cars for several years trying to find a sweet spot; still searching. my engine is a stock 440 and basically your putting together a physically smaller 426-440 wedge. my car has a midland ross power brake booster and it just doesn't like anything 15" of idle vacuum or less. the booster does fine with 16"-17" of vacuum at idle. the cams I've tried thru the years are the stock magnum, comp cams 21-305-4, 272/.455 mopar, hughs/engle 23/30 and summit 6401. the comp cams cam will make vacuum but runs out of steam rather quickly (probably due to 106cl installed). the 272 mopar looses vacuum, summit and engle even more. going from a true 1.5 rocker to a true 1.6 rocker will loose 1" of vacuum. the faster the lobe profile with the same duration will loose some vaccum. currently i have the stock mopar cam (actually a sealed power cs661, same as stock) in the engine and vacuum is up, brakes work, drives nicely, but performance has been better. that 275hl is going to give you about .560" lift at the valve, about 15 degrees overlap at .050" (something i'd never do with stock parts).

if you insist on the 275 type cam i'd suggest an xe274 ground on something like a 113 or 114lsa. the 275 is a 274 with the added area under the curve that a 274 has with 1.6 rocker. with all the tappet/cam problems people are having i'd error towards the gentler side. the faster the lobe, the higher the rocker ratio the more spring you need. the more spring you have can kill a hydraulic tappet and cause lobe failure.


I run the Factory Power Disc Brakes Midland Ross Booster

Interesting differences


1971 Dodge Charger Superbee
2011 Ram Sport 1500 Quad Cab Deep Water Blue Loaded
Siberian Huskies
Re: cam advice [Re: bee1971] #3133494
03/29/23 09:16 PM
03/29/23 09:16 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 171
louisiana
M
musclecarman15 Offline OP
member
musclecarman15  Offline OP
member
M

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 171
louisiana
So I believe I'm down to two..1. crower 271 cut on 112 or 113 lsa...2....comp xe274...cut on 113 or 114 lsa...I need the vacuum and a nice idle...just want to make sure these cams will give me a low rpm starting torque curve ,knowing that this car won't see hardly any rpm above 5k...it's an original (restored, matching number) 71 cuda convertible that I want to have some fun with....keith

Last edited by musclecarman15; 03/29/23 09:32 PM.
Re: cam advice [Re: lewtot184] #3133500
03/29/23 09:40 PM
03/29/23 09:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,711
Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda Offline
master
GomangoCuda  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,711
Moved to N.E. Tennessee
Originally Posted by lewtot184
looking at the 440source website it shows some compression ratios in the low nines which is what i have. anymore i look at overlap at .050" for these scenarios. a stock cam is -11 degrees at .050". from the cams i've used I've found anything at zero degrees and above will noticeably effect low rpm vacuum. the summit 6401 has about +1 degree overlap at .050" but can reduce idle vacuum by 2". the mopar 272 has zero degrees at .050" and will reduce vacuum. my favorite performer was the engle 2330 but at 110lsa it will noticeably reduce vacuum at idle. adding a higher ratio rocker to a stock cam will add some area under the curve plus some lift but will reduce vacuum a little. enhancing the timing curve only marginally helped vacuum. there're no free lunches here or magical cams. it all needs to be thought out. of course, a vacuum reservoir canister can be added; i just couldn't find a decent place for the black lump in my engine bay.

Engle will grind it with your choice of LCA.


In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
Re: cam advice [Re: musclecarman15] #3133556
03/30/23 08:42 AM
03/30/23 08:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,870
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize Offline
master
Streetwize  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,870
Weddington, N.C.
The Crower is cut on 112, it certain apps I had it cut on 108 and it made for one torquey beast in a 383. Moparts member Hank 71Coronetcop loved his too.

I wouldn't worry too much about idle low speed with a 426" low deck which is basically what you have. Id run like a 340 or 383 converter if it were mine and I agree getting the distributor curved to about 16-18 initial and 34-36 total makes it even snappier.

Even the old purple shaft .484 cam on 108 spread had plenty of vacuum for street driving.

Cannot go wrong with the Crower though. I'm hoping your OEM 4160 has a secondary metering block and an externally adjustable diaphragm so you can jet up anf you might want to tweak the shooter (a 31 rifle shooter almost always works great) and pump cam.

Should be a fun torque monster of a ride.


WIZE

World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI

In Car:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1