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Vintage front axle centerline #3127716
03/09/23 02:15 AM
03/09/23 02:15 AM
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Green Bay
Andyvh1959 Offline OP
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When I see pictures of a 53 to 56 Ford F1 pickups, some Tri-five Chevy 3100 pickups, and now since I own a 56 C3 Dodge, visually to me it often looks like the front wheels centerline is too far rear ward.
When I view a vintage C3 pickup from the side, it seems the front axle centerline is about 2" too far rearward in the fender opening. Is it just me? Anyone else see it that way?

Last edited by Andyvh1959; 03/09/23 10:12 AM.

My 56 C3-B8 Dakota build
Re: Vintage front axle centerline [Re: Andyvh1959] #3127801
03/09/23 01:31 PM
03/09/23 01:31 PM
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"Butt Crack Bob"
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many vintage vehicles suffer this malady. this also includes the rear wheel "appearance" as well.
over the years of playing with vehicles, the front and rear wheels of various makes have been moved around in the fender openings just to make the side view better, if it was relatively easy to do.
parallel leaf spring suspension makes it super easy to do. buggy spring suspension systems require a little thought, and independent coil spring suspensions require quite a bit of engineering to move around just for a couple of inches of better appearance in the fender openings.
in this case, it's usually easier to just move the openings in the fender. sometimes, it requires an extra pair of fenders to use as "parts" to help complete the job.
beer

Re: Vintage front axle centerline [Re: moparx] #3127838
03/09/23 03:04 PM
03/09/23 03:04 PM
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Andyvh1959 Offline OP
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Then I'm not the only one to see it that way. From my 2001 of my Dakota chassis I'll use the Dakota cab floor and firewall to weld into the 56 cab. When I place the 56 cab I'll probably move the cab back a few inches from the original chassis front wheel centerline, onto the Dakota chassis, then mount the front fenders and see how the tires line up in the wheel opening. I'll have the springs out of the front suspension so I can move the wheels up to full travel and turn angle to make sure it all looks right and clears everything. Since I am using the entire Dakota chassis as long as the cab fits to the Dak cab floor and firewall I'll know the engine fits relative to the firewall. Just a matter to make sure the Dakota firewall works with the 56 Dodge cowl area.


My 56 C3-B8 Dakota build
Re: Vintage front axle centerline [Re: Andyvh1959] #3127862
03/09/23 03:58 PM
03/09/23 03:58 PM
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poorboy Offline
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Sometimes its just easier moving the wheel opening.

On my 49, I moved the wheel opening on my front fenders 1 1/2" forward on the fenders. The other option would have been to recess the firewall another 1 1/2" to 2", move the cab forward, then probably end up shortening the frame another 2" so the spacing between the cab and the bed remained correct. Moving the wheel openings on the fenders was an easy choice. On my truck I didn't shorten the frame (it was very well done), but the wheel base is correct according to the wheel base of the original frame.

If you look at straight on side shots of a 48-53 Dodge pickup, the tires are not centered in either the front or the rear fenders. Really, most people don't notice. The tires on my truck are pretty close to being centered in the wheel openings.

Things like that are things most people don't notice until they are well into the builds, if ever. Its people like us that notice, but once its pointed out, its hard to be unnoticed. Until we forget....

Re: Vintage front axle centerline [Re: poorboy] #3128399
03/11/23 12:30 PM
03/11/23 12:30 PM
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Andyvh1959 Offline OP
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Yup, and if I don't adjust the axle centerlines into the wheel openings the way I feel it should look I'll be forever bothered by it.

Y'know, with a bit of careful placement, I bet a 108" wheelbase 54 to 58 Dodge pickup could be placed onto a 112" wheelbase Dakota chassis without cutting/modifying the Dakota frame. Plan the front axle centerline under the vintage fenders about 2" further forward, and then remount the vintage rear fenders on the box about 2" further rearward. The running boards would have to be moved rearward about 2" meet up with the leading edge of the rear fenders. Turns a 108" stock wheelbase 54 to 58 into a 112" wheelbase Dakota chassis, done carefully I bet few people would notice.

Or, find a long wheelbase 54 to 58, 116", and mount it on a Gen II or Gen III 112" Dakota chassis. Fudge the front axle centerline forward 2", and remount the running boards/rear fenders 2" further forward and it would match the Dakota 112" wheelbase without changing the frame length. Might have to trim the sidewalls of the box a few inches to move the gate forward to make it look right.

Here are some pics of a stock 55 Ford F1, to me the front axle centerline is too far back in the fender: https://metalworksclassics.com/portfolio-page/1955-ford-f100/

Here are some pics of a stock 56 C3 Dodge, again, even when the front wheels aren't dead straight ahead, too far back: https://classiccars.com/listings/view/915511/1956-dodge-pickup-for-sale-in-arundel-maine-04046

When I mount the 56 on my 2001 Dakota, the chassis will also be lowered as I have a set of 2" lowered A-arms to use with the stock spindles. So when the tires are lower in the fender opening they look much better when the axle centerline is moved forward. To me, when straight ahead, the leading vertical surface of the tire should be about 1" rearward of the frontmost fender opening to look right.

Last edited by Andyvh1959; 03/11/23 01:01 PM.

My 56 C3-B8 Dakota build
Re: Vintage front axle centerline [Re: Andyvh1959] #3128501
03/11/23 04:59 PM
03/11/23 04:59 PM
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"Butt Crack Bob"
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move the wheel/tire combo in the wheel openings, or move the wheel openings to center the tire/wheel combo now, as you said.
it WILL bug you FOREVER if you don't get it to your liking when it is easy[easier] to do........[i have been down this road "a couple of times". biggrin]
beer

Re: Vintage front axle centerline [Re: moparx] #3128652
03/12/23 12:27 AM
03/12/23 12:27 AM
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poorboy Offline
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I've had a few practice runs at getting the tires in the wheel openings at the place that looks right to me.
Pictured are just 4 of them I have easy picture access to. Three of the 4 have completely different frames under them, and the other (the teal green 54) had a front frame clip. These 4 builds span 20 years of building.

Picture 036.jpg50 Dodge 4x4 066.jpg100_0906.JPG100_0811.JPG
Re: Vintage front axle centerline [Re: poorboy] #3128654
03/12/23 12:33 AM
03/12/23 12:33 AM
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poorboy Offline
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Here are 2 more practice runs at matching the tires to the wheel opening.
Sorry about that 1st one, I only have 2 pictures of it eft, and Moparts wouldn't accept the better picture. This 1st one is on a complete fabricated frame, and the 2nd one is on a Dakota chassis too, this is the only picture I have lft of this car as well..

50 Dodge 4x4 051.jpg50 Dodge 4x4 037.jpg
Last edited by poorboy; 03/12/23 12:34 AM.
Re: Vintage front axle centerline [Re: poorboy] #3128700
03/12/23 09:55 AM
03/12/23 09:55 AM
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Andyvh1959 Offline OP
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Good to know I'm not the only one focused on getting the wheels in the right position. I've seen too many vintage pickups that looked "off" just because the front wheel centerline was too far back in the opening.


My 56 C3-B8 Dakota build
Re: Vintage front axle centerline [Re: poorboy] #3128797
03/12/23 03:47 PM
03/12/23 03:47 PM
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the last picture of the black dodge coupe clearly shows the rear wheels too far forward in the wheel opening.
you did a great job on moving the wheels around in your finished projects. that's how they should look. up
beer

Re: Vintage front axle centerline [Re: moparx] #3129498
03/14/23 09:55 PM
03/14/23 09:55 PM
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Andyvh1959 Offline OP
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As great looking as this 1955 F1 is (aside from it being a Ford), to me the front wheel centerline is too far back in the wheel opening: https://www.fastlanecars.com/vehicles/415/1955-ford-f100

This one has the front wheel centerline in the fender set up a bit better, https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-1955-Ford-F-100-c13893#listing=347635658/NONE

This Chevy has the front wheel centerline in the fender set up better, https://fuelcurve.com/redefined-56-chevy-pickup/

Here is one taken from the Truck Pictures section of this forum: https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/29672/89/lets-see-your-trucks.html
move down the page to see a side view of a 57 C3 with new mag wheels, looks like on the stock solid front axle, and the front wheel centerline ir way too far back. Even lowered it wouldn't look right.


Last edited by Andyvh1959; 03/15/23 12:32 PM.

My 56 C3-B8 Dakota build
Re: Vintage front axle centerline [Re: Andyvh1959] #3129726
03/15/23 06:55 PM
03/15/23 06:55 PM
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An issue with several of them is they look OK until you load the suspension. A lot of times axles move a bit when the springs are under compression. The black 39 Plymouth was one of the 1st Dakota chassis swaps I encountered (I did not do it). that rear end didn't shift towards the rear as much as I expected when the rear springs were loaded (the rear springs had a lot of arch in them). I could have solved that with relocating the axle on the spring, but that car went away pretty quickly after it was drivable. Those were pretty big 15" tires on it.

Another thing to consider, especially on the front, is often as the tires are turned left or right, the tire/wheels don't pivot on the center line. The tires can kick out farther at the front when turning or farther out at the rear when turning. In those cases, you need to offset the tire in the fender opening so the tire clears the fender as the steering turns the wheels, especially if the tires sit close to the fender opening like a lot of frame swaps will do. It seems to me that was an issue with the mid 50s Ford trucks. You notice that big $$ silver 55 Ford has the front tires sitting way inside of the fender edges, that was probably how he got away with the centered front tires.

Re: Vintage front axle centerline [Re: poorboy] #3130006
03/16/23 10:13 PM
03/16/23 10:13 PM
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Andyvh1959 Offline OP
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Exactly right. On rear leaf spring suspension with a fixed spring eye to the front the axle will move rearward as the leafs flatten. That's why leaf springs have shackles to allow for the eye to eye spring leaf change under loading. Even A-arm front suspension has influence on the wheel centerline due to the caster angle of the front spindle, and the actual centerline of the wheel/bearing relative to the actual pivot centerline of the front spindle. Some of that offset is designed in for steering effort and feel/feedback.

So when I plan the front wheel centerline in the fender opening I'll determine the best position at straight ahead and full steering cramp angle.


My 56 C3-B8 Dakota build
Re: Vintage front axle centerline [Re: Andyvh1959] #3148363
06/03/23 09:36 AM
06/03/23 09:36 AM
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Andyvh1959 Offline OP
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Not a Dodge (1st mistake), this custom build is SO far off its comical, stupid looking really.Hard to believe the builder did not "see" how far off this looks. Especially weird that the front fenders were built in to match the front axle centerline position. Lots of work to make it look like a child's toy. Found it for sale on Facebook Marketplace, the seller seems quite impressed with it, selling it for $40,000, claims he has $60,000 stuck in it

Attached PDF document
Botched Chevy.pdf (27 downloads)
Last edited by Andyvh1959; 06/03/23 09:45 AM.

My 56 C3-B8 Dakota build
Re: Vintage front axle centerline [Re: Andyvh1959] #3148401
06/03/23 01:36 PM
06/03/23 01:36 PM
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"Butt Crack Bob"
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all i can say is WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! eek
beer

Re: Vintage front axle centerline [Re: moparx] #3148486
06/03/23 08:17 PM
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Andyvh1959 Offline OP
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I assume you mean "Wow" as in "how can anyone put that much effort and money into a custom build to make it look so freakin stupid!?" Other pics of the truck show the rear axle not aligned properly in the rear fenders either, AND the rear end is jacked up on extended spring shackles. The front tires are not the right diameter, they look too small. And the rear tires are larger as if he was going for the big n littles look. That might work on a gasser style hot rod. But not on a classic vintage pickup.

Last edited by Andyvh1959; 06/03/23 08:20 PM.

My 56 C3-B8 Dakota build






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