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Re: Modifying rocker for cup adjuster
[Re: clovis]
#3114907
01/20/23 03:47 PM
01/20/23 03:47 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,123
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,123
Bend,OR USA
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Not sure how to tell the adjusters apart. I bought a set of Smith Bros to replace the adjusters on my 1.7 CAT rockers, and to lay them next to one another not sure you can tell the difference. Once you have both, Smith Bros and Manton's for the same application you will see the differences. I found out the hard way about Smith Bros. versus Manton while dyno testing a motor with a custom set of Smith Bros. 3/8x. (was suppose to be) .120 wall ball and cup for a solid roller cam motor with under 700 lbs. pressure opened and less than 8000 RPM. One broke in the middle (after around 12 pulls) due to a flaw in the metal in the tubing at around 5600 RPM, it ended up bending the one beside it and a broke the top of the Crower solid roller lifter body off allowing both lifters to be pushout of the lifter bores completely, one of the broken pushrod pieces got down into one lifter bore and gouge the cam lobe bad enough to need to be repair ruining my day  I took the two broken pieces and the bent pushrod back to Smith Bros and was told by Pierre, he had taken my order originally and had them built for me. When he saw the broken parts he made the comment that they were .083 wall, not the .120 wall I had ordered and paid for  They built me two new ones and gave them to me for no charge but did not offer to help on fixing the cam I order an identical set from Manton and took the motor with the Smith Bros. in it back to the dyno after getting the cam back from being repaired and it made the same power as the two runs before the pushrods failed. I swapped in the Manton's with no other changes and the motor made 8 HP more at peak HP RPM. I was and am a dealer for both, but I only sell Manton's now due to that testing and Smith Bros. not making what they say they made on special custom orders. 
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Modifying rocker for cup adjuster
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3115086
01/21/23 11:28 AM
01/21/23 11:28 AM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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Not sure how to tell the adjusters apart. I bought a set of Smith Bros to replace the adjusters on my 1.7 CAT rockers, and to lay them next to one another not sure you can tell the difference. Once you have both, Smith Bros and Manton's for the same application you will see the differences. I found out the hard way about Smith Bros. versus Manton while dyno testing a motor with a custom set of Smith Bros. 3/8x. (was suppose to be) .120 wall ball and cup for a solid roller cam motor with under 700 lbs. pressure opened and less than 8000 RPM. One broke in the middle (after around 12 pulls) due to a flaw in the metal in the tubing at around 5600 RPM, it ended up bending the one beside it and a broke the top of the Crower solid roller lifter body off allowing both lifters to be pushout of the lifter bores completely, one of the broken pushrod pieces got down into one lifter bore and gouge the cam lobe bad enough to need to be repair ruining my day I took the two broken pieces and the bent pushrod back to Smith Bros and was told by Pierre, he had taken my order originally and had them built for me. When he saw the broken parts he made the comment that they were .083 wall, not the .120 wall I had ordered and paid for They built me two new ones and gave them to me for no charge but did not offer to help on fixing the cam I order an identical set from Manton and took the motor with the Smith Bros. in it back to the dyno after getting the cam back from being repaired and it made the same power as the two runs before the pushrods failed. I swapped in the Manton's with no other changes and the motor made 8 HP more at peak HP RPM. I was and am a dealer for both, but I only sell Manton's now due to that testing and Smith Bros. not making what they say they made on special custom orders. I hate to tell you Cab, but I doubt the pushrod was your issue. I went through this years ago and other things had issues causing the PR to fail. I get that you swapped pushrods and they stopped failing. But you put on bandaid on the symptom but not the disease. IMO at this point ANY roller cam engine should have 7/16 pushrods, especially the Chrysler stuff. I don’t care what Smith Brothers or Manton says (I use both) and they both try and talk me out of bigger diameter pushrods because their [censored] is “the best”. You can’t get the pushrod too big. Ever. If it fits make it as big as you can and tell the PR manufacturers to piss off. A 3/8 pushrod is for SFT street stuff. Queue all the triggered types who run 5/16 .062 wall pushrods with 1000 pounds over the nose at 9800 RPM.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Modifying rocker for cup adjuster
[Re: madscientist]
#3118978
02/05/23 01:05 AM
02/05/23 01:05 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 553
Kentucky
clovis
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 553
Kentucky
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Made it by the machine shop. Everything turned out pretty well. The adjuster is pretty consistent at being .180 from the rocker. I was able to score a set of 7/16 to 3/8 tapered pushrods on the cheap and it looks like they will work without any grinding to the heads.
'75 Plymouth Duster
Phase I 451 906/590/2-660 10.75/126
Phase II 451 Stage VI/590/1050 9.82/135
Phase III 383 906/Victor-Pump gas 11.30/119
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
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Re: Modifying rocker for cup adjuster
[Re: madscientist]
#3118989
02/05/23 02:50 AM
02/05/23 02:50 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,123
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,123
Bend,OR USA
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There can be many reason for stepping up on better parts, when you do testing and see no gain or loss on some parts there is no real reason to step up to the bigger, heavier, thicker more expensive parts. Have you tried Mantons series five 3x8x.142 wall pushrods? If not. you should  As far as the 7/16 single and double tapered pushrods and the larger 1/2 and 9/16 diameter Manton pushrods they are heads and shoulder above anything Smith Bros makes. My last S/P stroker 400 block had Manton single taper 7/16 to 3/8 .167 wall ball and ball pushrods for the 1.55 ratio paired shaft Jesel rocker arms, those pushrods worked very well with 880 lbs. over the nose up to 7800 RPM, it had 325 lbs seat pressure. That motor turned over, once I got it spinning with a breaker bar, with the plugs out so easy I couldn't believe it  My new NOS B1 headed aluminum motor will get a set of them also with the 1.72 ratio Jesels rockers that are on them, 325 to 350 Lb. seat pressures and 850 to 880 lbs. open. I may end up taking them back apart and try swapping the inners around with other outers to try them closer together on the pressure, + or - 10 lbs. instead of 30 lbs. like they are now.
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 02/05/23 10:07 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Modifying rocker for cup adjuster
[Re: clovis]
#3119154
02/05/23 06:20 PM
02/05/23 06:20 PM
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 874
Missouri
jwb123
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 874
Missouri
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I have used these rockers on a few mild builds. Performance Quotient PQx Platinum Series https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pqx-3244011/make/dodge they use an adjuster like you show. They have a hole drilled in the cup and it oils threw the rocker itself, small slot on the adjuster screw. They seem to work well so far anyway. I actually prefer that type of adjuster as it keeps the pushrod from swinging to much as it goes through its motion. Just look at the standard mopar style rocker and visualize the arc of motion of the adjuster. the longer it sticks through the rocker the longer the arc of motion is.
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Re: Modifying rocker for cup adjuster
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3119159
02/05/23 06:56 PM
02/05/23 06:56 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 553
Kentucky
clovis
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 553
Kentucky
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Most of my decisions are value related. I am building this motor to be a 7.00/11.00 motor so about the 500 hp mark. Those pushrods were only $25 and I am only running 155/330 (solid flat tappet) for spring pressure so I feel like the pushrods don’t have to be the best for what I am doing, if I were running a roller I would reconsider that position. So at this point I have $100 to correct the loss in lift and probably gain some stabilization with the thicker pushrods. I consider it a good spend, the same with the Oberg filter I posted in another thread, for $50 to be able to filter the oil from the pan seems like a good deal. In the end I am looking for the best value in a performance upgrade or something to increase reliability.
'75 Plymouth Duster
Phase I 451 906/590/2-660 10.75/126
Phase II 451 Stage VI/590/1050 9.82/135
Phase III 383 906/Victor-Pump gas 11.30/119
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
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Re: Modifying rocker for cup adjuster
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3119214
02/05/23 10:36 PM
02/05/23 10:36 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 553
Kentucky
clovis
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 553
Kentucky
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With cup adjuster I am push rod oiling so the set screws are to close off the oiling from the rocker to the pushrod.
'75 Plymouth Duster
Phase I 451 906/590/2-660 10.75/126
Phase II 451 Stage VI/590/1050 9.82/135
Phase III 383 906/Victor-Pump gas 11.30/119
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
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Re: Modifying rocker for cup adjuster
[Re: clovis]
#3119303
02/06/23 02:13 PM
02/06/23 02:13 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,123
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,123
Bend,OR USA
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With cup adjuster I am push rod oiling so the set screws are to close off the oiling from the rocker to the pushrod. Thanks for answering that 
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Modifying rocker for cup adjuster
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3119377
02/06/23 06:12 PM
02/06/23 06:12 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 553
Kentucky
clovis
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 553
Kentucky
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I just need to decide now what I am going to use to secure the brass set screws. I have loctite in red, blue and green (both retainer and thread lock) and am leaning toward the thread lock. I worry about the different expansion rates of the brass and aluminum but from what I see they are much closer than aluminum and steel.
'75 Plymouth Duster
Phase I 451 906/590/2-660 10.75/126
Phase II 451 Stage VI/590/1050 9.82/135
Phase III 383 906/Victor-Pump gas 11.30/119
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
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Re: Modifying rocker for cup adjuster
[Re: rickraw]
#3119409
02/06/23 08:55 PM
02/06/23 08:55 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 553
Kentucky
clovis
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 553
Kentucky
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The endmill was a 12mm, don’t remember the flute.
'75 Plymouth Duster
Phase I 451 906/590/2-660 10.75/126
Phase II 451 Stage VI/590/1050 9.82/135
Phase III 383 906/Victor-Pump gas 11.30/119
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
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Re: Modifying rocker for cup adjuster
[Re: clovis]
#3119670
02/07/23 04:34 PM
02/07/23 04:34 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,355
north of coder
moparx
"Butt Crack Bob"
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"Butt Crack Bob"
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,355
north of coder
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The endmill was a 12mm, don’t remember the flute. thanks.  the reason i asked about the radius of the flutes, the bigger the radius, the less likely a stress crack will develop. is this worth worrying about for a rocker arm ? who knows ? just my machinist mind wondering about things to be concerned about in my 45 year career working on, machining, and supervising high pressure vessels. 
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