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Re: W9 Small Block - Quest for the 9's [Re: Moparrob68] #3114983
01/20/23 08:24 PM
01/20/23 08:24 PM
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WNY
Moparrob68 Offline OP
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Moparrob68  Offline OP
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I talked to Dom at Thumper carbs the other night. He said that he could build a 1000ish 4150 BLP based carb for this manifold. Would we be better off building a 1050 Dominator with adaptor and have the option to open up the manifold to 4500 opening later?

Re: W9 Small Block - Quest for the 9's [Re: Moparrob68] #3114992
01/20/23 09:41 PM
01/20/23 09:41 PM
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My “gut” feeling is that race car you will be happier with a 4500 and specific intake in the end. Results will vary but on a hunch we went with Brett Millers 420-2 intake. Our thoughts were that with our smallish cam (heads flowed N of 400) that the larger plenum would maybe soften the hit….. we we wrong. Way wrong. It absolutely loved it. Maybe too much. I agree with some others. You got some nice parts, you just gotta get them to dance. It’s unfortunate that you didn’t go the dyno route and who CNC ports head and doesn’t know what they flow?? If you built the mill my hats off to you. I was confused enough with the idiosyncrasies of the W8 stuff but with the investment in a new R3 I consulted the professionals. My engine was built and dynoed by Brian at IMM. He actually took control and most likely guided me in the proper direction of “it’ll be fast, but it’ll be fun (lower maint)”. I honestly see with your stuff that low nines will be in the bag.

541F6D27-7387-4460-BBFA-8AB47EB65EC3.jpeg
Re: W9 Small Block - Quest for the 9's [Re: Moparrob68] #3115007
01/20/23 10:25 PM
01/20/23 10:25 PM
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W. Kentucky
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Originally Posted by Moparrob68
I talked to Dom at Thumper carbs the other night. He said that he could build a 1000ish 4150 BLP based carb for this manifold. Would we be better off building a 1050 Dominator with adaptor and have the option to open up the manifold to 4500 opening later?


To take full advantage of a Dominator I'd either buy another intake or modify mine to a Dominator flange. When I was planning my 434 I talked to Brett a couple times on the phone, his advice was that if I was going to run a 4150 intake to run a 4150 carb, not an adapter and a Dominator.

This is the carb Dom built me, I already had the main body, so I sent it to him, and he built me a carb.

IMG_4822.jpgIMG_4832.jpg
Re: W9 Small Block - Quest for the 9's [Re: Moparrob68] #3115021
01/20/23 11:12 PM
01/20/23 11:12 PM
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New York
polyspheric Offline
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I really don't understand all the sharp edges in the pix of chamber, air horn etc. Anything wider than 15° transition "trips" flow; the cure is a small radius, up to 3/8".


Boffin Emeritus
Re: W9 Small Block - Quest for the 9's [Re: polyspheric] #3115080
01/21/23 11:04 AM
01/21/23 11:04 AM
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Oakland, MI
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I'm sure you're really frustrated/disapointed in the results. But you have a lot of good pieces there that you're absolutely right the car should be way into the 9's.

130mph @ 3275 is only showing about 550hp at the crank. Could the carb or converter be better/different? Sure. Is it going to pick up the 150hp+ that missing? I highly doubt it.

It seems that there is something more majorly wrong... I would start with the basics.

1) Is the Throttle all the way open. I know that's a dumb thing, but certainly done it, and seen others do it before.
2) Do a leak down on all 8 cylinders. Maybe it tagged a valve or two on accident.
3) How close is the carb to the scoop? Is it sealed to the carb? You might want to try either running the car without the spacer to get more room for the air to make the turn, or without the hood completely as a trial.
4) Calculate the converter slip at the stripe. What RPM is it crossing the line at (needs to be a very accurate number to do this, you can' guess). That will at least give you one piece of info on the "health" of the converter.
5) Is the timing curve stable (any chance this thing has a programable MSD that could accidentally have a wonky curve in it?)
6) Try sweeping the timing a little further. In my experience moving timing around, if 1 degree moved the car a full tenth, it's WAY off. It's possible it wants more, but maybe didn't have enough octane in it? (grasping at straws a big here).
7) Have you tried different fuel all together? I've seen a bad batch and or wrong octane really hurt power on occasion.


Obviously its a major pain in the ass as a last resort to yank the motor and dyno it. But if you do get to that point, at least you'll know if you should be chasing the motor or the car once you see a dyno sheet.

Re: W9 Small Block - Quest for the 9's [Re: dizuster] #3115109
01/21/23 12:31 PM
01/21/23 12:31 PM
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WNY
Moparrob68 Offline OP
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Answers to dizusters questions:
1. Yes, verified throttle was opening 100%
2. I'll have to do a leak down test
3. With the spacer the carb is very close to the hood scoop 1/2 to 3/4". Removed spacer thinking it would improve airflow into carb and car lost a tenth.Sealed carb to hood with and without spacer, ET did not improve.
Fuel pressure stays steady down the track, 8lbs 4150, 5 1/2 lbs Dom
4. Driver didn't get a good rpm at the stripe reading. Plan on installing a playback tach this year
5. Timing is stable with light at 5000. MSD diet with lightest springs, full advance by 1500. Going to try locking it out.
6. Tried 34,36,38. 36 gave best ET. how far do you suggest going?
7. Fuel was VP C12 from a 2 year old sealed drum because the engine build took much longer than expected with all the headaches. Plan on trying a fresh pail this spring.

Re: W9 Small Block - Quest for the 9's [Re: Moparrob68] #3115114
01/21/23 12:57 PM
01/21/23 12:57 PM
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PA.
pittsburghracer Offline
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Man I just looked your slips over again and man you gotta have a few issues going on. My sons duster that weights 3200 pounds ran 10.11 with my old 408 that I pulled out for its fourth rebuild. This was at keystone in summer heat. Edelbrock headed 408 with around 11.1 compression, 650 lift roller cam, 750 alcohol carb, 727 with 4.10 gears, 5600 stall. Shifting at 6700-6800 rpm. With his old stock crank 360 that ran 10’s he gained .5 going from a 4600 stall to a 5600 stall.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: W9 Small Block - Quest for the 9's [Re: Moparrob68] #3115116
01/21/23 01:03 PM
01/21/23 01:03 PM
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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Through the years I have dyno tested several engines that came out of cars with very similar stories.

It was almost 100% of them making noticeably less power than expected......... and the car running on par with the results from the dyno test.
I can think of a couple where the owners each spent several thousands on parts for the car in an attempt to find the missing ET.

The other side of that story is....... one of my friends had a converter fail on his S/G car.
Bought a new high dollar unit from a big name supplier.
Car was waaaay down everywhere.
Sent it back, they adjusted it...... no change. This happened several times.
Everything was off. 60’, ET, Speed.
Had this been a new untested combo........ we would have suspected the combo was just off.
But the car had run way better for years previously, and ran what it “should” have.

Eventually, a converter was sourced from a different supplier, and the 60’ and ET came back. Speed was still down........new converter had enough slippage that the engine was on the limiter before the finish line. With the original converter, the speed was up 4mph and the engine never touched the limiter.

My suggestion is to dyno the engine.
At least then you’ll have the info needed to know what the car “should” run.

Two comments about what I see.......

Nowhere near enough stall(5000)

Looks like the bump steer situation really could use some attention


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: W9 Small Block - Quest for the 9's [Re: fast68plymouth] #3115127
01/21/23 01:48 PM
01/21/23 01:48 PM
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MI, usa
dvw Offline
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These two runs with 165lbs of ballast. After the 2nd run we discovered a broken converter. The 1st pass was quicker than we had anticpated. We were trying to slow to 9.25 index. One pass killed it.
Doug

Screenshot 2023-01-21 124508.png
Re: W9 Small Block - Quest for the 9's [Re: Moparrob68] #3115154
01/21/23 02:56 PM
01/21/23 02:56 PM
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New York
polyspheric Offline
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Do you have a CCP reading?
Tell me your intake closing @ nominal ABDC (not .050") and rod length (4.00" stroke, 13.2 static CR), and I'll try to predict it.


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Re: W9 Small Block - Quest for the 9's [Re: polyspheric] #3115196
01/21/23 05:24 PM
01/21/23 05:24 PM
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Posts: 108
WNY
Moparrob68 Offline OP
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200 psi cranking Comp
6.25 rod
64.5* intake closing @ 0.050 from cam card
Cam degrees to 107* with all springs installed

Re: W9 Small Block - Quest for the 9's [Re: Moparrob68] #3115202
01/21/23 05:51 PM
01/21/23 05:51 PM
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Oregon
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200 psi cranking will usually make really good power on race gas. I'm wondering if your gas is bad. You said it was two years old? I've seen bad gas cost 100 hp in a race engine on the dyno. It happens sometimes even with fresh pails of gas. The engine still runs but is soft on power. Try some fresh gas before you do anything drastic.

Re: W9 Small Block - Quest for the 9's [Re: Moparrob68] #3115517
01/22/23 08:31 PM
01/22/23 08:31 PM
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New Smyrna Beach FL
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scottb Offline
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My old W9 motor was 14.1 roller was a little bigger with a 1250 APD carb 456 gear 6500 converter went 117 in the 1/8 so your down on power somewhere are the pistons a dome or flat top with the small chamber heads good luck with your new combo after rereading your post I see your using a dish piston my brother I’ll law ran the same piston in his W8 motor the car ran good but never like it should have when he started to look the motor over again he came up with maybe 10-1 compression not 12.5 like he was told

Last edited by scottb; 01/22/23 08:38 PM.
Re: W9 Small Block - Quest for the 9's [Re: Moparrob68] #3115636
01/23/23 11:52 AM
01/23/23 11:52 AM
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Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB Offline
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Very nice motor, keep after what has been suggested and you'll get there!

Re: W9 Small Block - Quest for the 9's [Re: HardcoreB] #3115646
01/23/23 12:26 PM
01/23/23 12:26 PM
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Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula Offline
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Rob,

I can lend you that 1250 I have....Maybe the carb IS suffocating it.


'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: W9 Small Block - Quest for the 9's [Re: Dragula] #3115702
01/23/23 02:58 PM
01/23/23 02:58 PM
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Posts: 2,362
Wheatfield, NY
Cuda340 Offline
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Hey Rob,

Something to think about. Earlier in the thread there was mention of combustion chamber efficiency/shape effecting timing. My 416 liked 29 degrees of timing on the dyno with my Brodix B1-BA heads anything over 31 degrees the HP really fell off. Worth a try.


Also about the Innovate unit I have. The new LM-2 "Basic" Kit (Single Wideband O2) ONLY includes the LM-2 meter, Bosch wide-band oxygen sensor, 8 ft sensor cable, cigarette-lighter power adapter, USB cable for PC connection, weld-in bung and plug ,and manual. *Note: The LM-2 "Basic" Kit out of the box only includes accessories to display your Air/Fuel Ratio either on the meter and/or on your PC. To log RPM, or to Output the wideband signal to an external device you'll need the LM-2 Analog IN/OUT Cable (P/N: 3811) optional accessory. For OBD-II features you'll need the LM-2 OBD-II Cable (P/N: 3809) optional accessory. To record internally to your LM-2 you'll need the SD Card (P/N: 3787) optional accessory. This unit also comes in a cardboard box, the black hard case is an optional accessory LM-2 Carrying Case (P/N: 3836)*

KEY FEATURES
100 pct. Digital Wideband Air/Fuel Ratio Technology
Built-In RPM Converter [Direct Freq. or w/Opt. Inductive Clamp]
Large High-Contrast Graphics LCD
Log Directly To SD Card
OBDII Scan Tool-Read/Clear DTCs and Log Up to 16 Channels
Patented DirectDigital™ Wideband Sensor Control
Playback Log Data On Screen And/Or w/Powerful LogWorks Software
Single or Dual Channel A/F Version Available
Wideband O2 Compatible w/All Fuel Types

Last edited by Cuda340; 01/23/23 03:00 PM.
Re: W9 Small Block - Quest for the 9's [Re: Cuda340] #3115771
01/23/23 05:54 PM
01/23/23 05:54 PM
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Melbourne , Australia
LA360 Offline
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Put it on the Dyno
You'll spend a bunch of money and time chasing the power at the track.


Alan Jones
Re: W9 Small Block - Quest for the 9's [Re: LA360] #3115821
01/23/23 09:47 PM
01/23/23 09:47 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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The dyno is a tool to use to test with, the oil in the motor and the air entering the carb are nowhere near what they do in the car with the hood closed work
Get your baseline setup on the engine dyno and then finishing tuning and testing it at the tracks you will race on up twocents scope


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: W9 Small Block - Quest for the 9's [Re: Dragula] #3115931
01/24/23 09:16 AM
01/24/23 09:16 AM
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J_BODY Offline
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Originally Posted by Dragula
Rob,

I can lend you that 1250 I have....Maybe the carb IS suffocating it.


Considering I did my first hits using an ancient BG 750 and ran 9.6s short shifting I’d be amazed if the carb swap did anything for it. I ran a 598/4150 intake for years with a carb 1.48 venturi 1.79 throttle blade. We were pretty much 9.4-9.5 anywhere we’d go. On a heads up challenge race we entered I decided to try the old 4500/1050 we used on our W5 mill so I matched the 2” adapter to the intake and went to the track finding out we gained pretty much nothing and actually the 60 slowed over time slips from the previous visits. It’s unfortunate that I changed intakes and carb the same time I went from my 727 to 904 because it really picked up across the board. It’s now pretty much a 9.2 car but we’ve gone 9.09. Just shy of needing a chute.

Re: W9 Small Block - Quest for the 9's [Re: dvw] #3115932
01/24/23 09:20 AM
01/24/23 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by dvw
These two runs with 165lbs of ballast. After the 2nd run we discovered a broken converter. The 1st pass was quicker than we had anticpated. We were trying to slow to 9.25 index. One pass killed it.
Doug



Doug I’d FREAK the **** out if I lost that much on one pass….. I’d definitely be thinking “engine” issue off the top of my head.

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