Solid roller lifters, bushed or needle bearing?
#3109999
01/08/23 10:15 AM
01/08/23 10:15 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,275 Kissimmee, Florida
aarlucas
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,275
Kissimmee, Florida
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At one time, it was fairly easy to buy a set of roller lifters. I have always used comp cams 829 roller lifters and have not has a single problem. However, I am building a new build and want good reliable lifters. I was about to order a new set and I got curious which is better, solid bushed or needle bearing lifters and why to each. I have read so much on this subject now and I am not sure I am any better off than I was before I started reading on the subject.
Dan Jesel has a really good write up on the bushed vs bearing lifters and he still prefers the bearings, many others however, prefer the bushed. Just wondering what every ones experience has been on this subject and which one you use and why?
Thanks for your thoughts!
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Re: Solid roller lifters, bushed or needle bearing?
[Re: aarlucas]
#3110004
01/08/23 10:26 AM
01/08/23 10:26 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 763 Southington Ct.
turbobitt
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 763
Southington Ct.
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At one time, it was fairly easy to buy a set of roller lifters. I have always used comp cams 829 roller lifters and have not has a single problem. However, I am building a new build and want good reliable lifters. I was about to order a new set and I got curious which is better, solid bushed or needle bearing lifters and why to each. I have read so much on this subject now and I am not sure I am any better off than I was before I started reading on the subject.
Dan Jesel has a really good write up on the bushed vs bearing lifters and he still prefers the bearings, many others however, prefer the bushed. Just wondering what every ones experience has been on this subject and which one you use and why?
Thanks for your thoughts! It seems for Mopar blocks its not a cut and dry answer. For example if you have a lifter bushed block and want to utilize the pressurized axle blearing option than you have to use a customized lifter body, most likely a chevy bodied .903 lifter with a properly positioned drilled hole in the bushing to align with the oil band in the lifter. With that said, I don't think I would use a bushed lifter without the Hipo option. That's my just my opinion. I will be trying them out for the first time myself. I had Crower build me a set of bushed lifters using the Chevy .903 bodies and Mopar BB tie bars. Not a big deal for them to do. AG.
1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy.
1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno.
1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.
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Re: Solid roller lifters, bushed or needle bearing?
[Re: aarlucas]
#3110086
01/08/23 03:26 PM
01/08/23 03:26 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,049 San Jose Ca.
boatracer572
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,049
San Jose Ca.
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At one time, it was fairly easy to buy a set of roller lifters. I have always used comp cams 829 roller lifters and have not has a single problem. However, I am building a new build and want good reliable lifters. I was about to order a new set and I got curious which is better, solid bushed or needle bearing lifters and why to each. I have read so much on this subject now and I am not sure I am any better off than I was before I started reading on the subject.
Dan Jesel has a really good write up on the bushed vs bearing lifters and he still prefers the bearings, many others however, prefer the bushed. Just wondering what every ones experience has been on this subject and which one you use and why?
Thanks for your thoughts! I tried a set of bushed lifters in one of my predator combos, i had bad results, with only one pass, one of the lifters froze, wiping out a $750 camshaft.. the valve springs were over 1200 lbs open ,and they were very good quality lifters... one of my friends, runs nhra pro stock has tested a set with similar results...... Buyer beware... I'm sure the bushing lifters may be better by now, but once bitten twice shy......
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Re: Solid roller lifters, bushed or needle bearing?
[Re: aarlucas]
#3110142
01/08/23 07:11 PM
01/08/23 07:11 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,894 MI, usa
dvw
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,894
MI, usa
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This is pretty much what Dan Jesel was thinking too. Explain then why mine live? I went with them on a sugestion from my friend who runs Super gas and Super Comp. Both are 600+ BB chevys with over an 1" of lift and 1000bs over the nose. They haven't hurt any bushed lifters either. Doug
Last edited by dvw; 01/08/23 07:11 PM.
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Re: Solid roller lifters, bushed or needle bearing?
[Re: aarlucas]
#3110144
01/08/23 07:22 PM
01/08/23 07:22 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,213 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,213
New York
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Continuous wear (loosening up the roller internals) is, IMHO, not the real danger. Except for hydraulic rollers, the lash (as set, or loose) is taken up violently when the opening ramp smacks the roller sideways. The hit is only taken by the few rollers immediately adjacent to the point of contact, nothing like the entire set of rollers. This impact will shatter the needles, especially when lash gets above spec. I suspect that even one broken roller may lead to failure.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Solid roller lifters, bushed or needle bearing?
[Re: polyspheric]
#3110149
01/08/23 07:31 PM
01/08/23 07:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 763 Southington Ct.
turbobitt
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 763
Southington Ct.
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I wonder if anyone has made any correlation between a dry sump, oil restricted, tightly controlled internal oil windage environment to roller lifter failures. AG.
1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy.
1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno.
1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.
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Re: Solid roller lifters, bushed or needle bearing?
[Re: turbobitt]
#3110254
01/09/23 07:59 AM
01/09/23 07:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,038 Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,038
Tulsa OK
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There is more rollers that feed the needles direct oil these days. I started running the comp 8043-16s last summer. So far so good but they loose a lot of oil and I need to figure out a way to restrict it.
The only roller failure I have had was on the same position I lost the needles from a rocker arm(Erson). I changed rocker arm sets all together and moved on. When I tore the motor down over a year and over 1000 miles later that lifter was messed up. I am assuming it was messed up the whole time because I never saw a lash change after the new rocker arms were installed. That means I drove the car several months and did Drag Week in 2018 with a messed up roller that I wouldn't discover until I tore it down in 2019. Only slight damage to the cam that I re-used until this year.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
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Re: Solid roller lifters, bushed or needle bearing?
[Re: Bad340fish]
#3110277
01/09/23 09:59 AM
01/09/23 09:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,416 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,416
Marion, South Carolina [><]
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I have no experience w/ bushed lifters, but my understanding is a bushed lifter needs pressurized oiling. My KB block doesn't feed oil to the lifters at all. Just splash and drainback oiling. I have Isky Red Zone lifters w/ needle bearings from 2006 before they offered bushed lifters. Haven't had any issues w/ them.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: Solid roller lifters, bushed or needle bearing?
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#3110283
01/09/23 10:07 AM
01/09/23 10:07 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,894 MI, usa
dvw
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,894
MI, usa
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Mine bushed lifters have pressurised oiling. How ever until this past year the axle oil hole was .045" below the bottom of the lifter bushing at base circle. Not to mention the lifter bushings were loose at around .0025"-.003". So there was plenty of oil running around the lifter. It also pushrod oils. That wasn't an issue. The new bushings are fit at .0015" and hang down far enough to cover the wheel/axle oil feed hole. However they ran 550 passes in the previous configuration. Doug
Last edited by dvw; 01/09/23 10:08 AM.
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Re: Solid roller lifters, bushed or needle bearing?
[Re: aarlucas]
#3110341
01/09/23 01:56 PM
01/09/23 01:56 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 277 Anchorage, Alaska
metallicareload
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 277
Anchorage, Alaska
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I’ve put around 7,800 miles on a set of bushed Comp 96829B, half dozen passes, my cam seems kinda mild though. I replaced those with regular Comp 96829 with needle bearings. I would’ve kept using the bushed lifters but they were on back order when I needed them. Stock unbushed 440 block with an oil restriction to the driver’s side lifters. If you don’t have lifter oiling, I don’t think I’d use bushed lifters. I’m the opposite of an expert, it seems people have made it work, but I’d think that’s a needle bearing application rather than a bushing
440, 4-Speed, 3.54 1968, when Dinosaurs ruled the Earth
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Re: Solid roller lifters, bushed or needle bearing?
[Re: SportF]
#3110424
01/09/23 08:38 PM
01/09/23 08:38 PM
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 511 Temperance, MI
68 HEMI GTS
mopar
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mopar
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 511
Temperance, MI
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I went with crower bushed lifters this go around on my hemi. The 829’s I use to run needed rebuilt often. With comp no longer rebuilding them the choice to upgrade is easy. I had best machine bush my block.
68 Dart GTS "HEMI" 10.30 @ 131 pump gas street car 3780# 69 Roadrunner 511 six pack 10.92 drive to track street car
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Re: Solid roller lifters, bushed or needle bearing?
[Re: aarlucas]
#3110478
01/10/23 12:08 AM
01/10/23 12:08 AM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 714 Lake Villa Il
INTMD8
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 714
Lake Villa Il
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I like the Morel black mamba. No bushing in the wheel. Dissimilar metal axle. Oiling -through- axle rather than directed towards it.
69 Charger. 438ci Gen2 hemi. Flex fuel. Holley HP efi. 650rwhp @7250 510rwtq @5700
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Re: Solid roller lifters, bushed or needle bearing?
[Re: dvw]
#3110508
01/10/23 08:55 AM
01/10/23 08:55 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,275 Kissimmee, Florida
aarlucas
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,275
Kissimmee, Florida
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This is pretty much what Dan Jesel was thinking too. Explain then why mine live? I went with them on a sugestion from my friend who runs Super gas and Super Comp. Both are 600+ BB chevys with over an 1" of lift and 1000bs over the nose. They haven't hurt any bushed lifters either. Doug Basically, the way I understand it is it comes down to the oiling. The bushed lifters have about .0015 clearance and need good forced oiling so they don't increase the friction on the bushing. If they don't have the proper oiling, the friction increases. Sounds like you have really good lifter oiling. I personally do not have a preference, but the bushed lifters got my attention, for the reasons you stated.
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Re: Solid roller lifters, bushed or needle bearing?
[Re: gregsdart]
#3110512
01/10/23 09:18 AM
01/10/23 09:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,213 Minn
SportF
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,213
Minn
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My oil pump couldn't digest the lifter needles very well. I went with Isky bushed lifters. I had heard this before which is why I went with the bushed roller. I also have a hydraulic system filter on my pickup to keep stuff out of the pump.
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