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Hemi guys- Barton T&D rockers... #3108582
01/04/23 08:06 PM
01/04/23 08:06 PM
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CrAzYMoPaRGuY Offline OP
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Crazy as it sounds, I'm about to fire my car!!! lol
Engine was built by Barton moons ago, and it has T&D rockers.
We primed the engine last weekend, it had oil SPEWING past the oil tube at #4 cam journal area both sides, where the yellow arrow in the pic shows. It sprays pretty good. I contacted Barton, he said the older rocker setups did that, they fixed it by installing a 0.10 thick o ring under the washer each side and retorquing.
I'm wondering if anyone here is familiar with this, has anybody used an o ring to fix it, and if a copper/aluminum washer might be a better idea???

Leaks from under the bolt in the pic each side, sprays forward and backward!

bartonhemileak.jpg

CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Re: Hemi guys- Barton T&D rockers... [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #3108587
01/04/23 08:34 PM
01/04/23 08:34 PM
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New York
polyspheric Offline
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Parker Stat-O-Seal®?

Washer with captive O-ring


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Re: Hemi guys- Barton T&D rockers... [Re: polyspheric] #3108627
01/04/23 10:10 PM
01/04/23 10:10 PM
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6PKRTSE Offline
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Mine has the Stat-o-seal washers.

Last edited by 6PKRTSE; 01/04/23 10:15 PM.

1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute
1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack
1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi
1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL
1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383
1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440
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Re: Hemi guys- Barton T&D rockers... [Re: 6PKRTSE] #3108675
01/04/23 10:45 PM
01/04/23 10:45 PM
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Richmond, Tx. (Houston)
GTSDave Offline
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Pics or Part numbers for these washers please. The instructions I got with my Barton rockers were not clear, and they came with a straight piece of an O ring. Searched the web for example pics and never found any.

-Dave


PLEASE Pray for our brothers and sisters in harms way.

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Re: Hemi guys- Barton T&D rockers... [Re: GTSDave] #3108722
01/04/23 11:28 PM
01/04/23 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by GTSDave
Pics or Part numbers for these washers please. The instructions I got with my Barton rockers were not clear, and they came with a straight piece of an O ring. Searched the web for example pics and never found any.

-Dave


^^This!^^ lol


CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Re: Hemi guys- Barton T&D rockers... [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #3108732
01/04/23 11:55 PM
01/04/23 11:55 PM
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CrAzYMoPaRGuY Offline OP
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Bolt diameter (1/2"?) and washer/seal thickness, but also a "rubber" compound that is compatible with the heat and oil I'm guessing. Not sure an o ring would have been any good! lol


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Re: Hemi guys- Barton T&D rockers... [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #3108739
01/05/23 12:25 AM
01/05/23 12:25 AM
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Cranberry Twp PA (North of Pit...
rumblefish72 Offline
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I had the same issue. Motor was built by and experienced HEMI shop. I had the motor sitting on the stand for a couple of years before getting serious about the installation. I wanted to double check everything before installation. I popped the valve covers off and spun the oil pump with the primer hex in the drill. Oil squirted out both L and R rocker mounting plates above the #4 cam journal just like yours. I know that restrictors were installed in the oil galley that goes up to the heads on each side (not sure what size hole). I thought that the plan was to use the spray bars for lubrication. The spray bars on my newer mounting plates on my Barton/T&D setup only have oil holes drilled to lubricate the exhaust rockers. The spray bars on my old mounting plates had holes to oil the intake AND exhaust rockers. I guess there is enough splash to keep the intake rockers lubed and cool so in the newer mounting plates, they did away with the spray bar holes for the intake rockers.

Anyways, I removed the cylinder head bolt where the oil gallery comes up through the head and through the mounting plate. The section of rubber o-ring was missing on both sides. I have the instruction sheet from Barton and it says that there should be a short section of o-ring fitted into the space between the cylinder head washer and the little void created by the round section of the spray bar tube in the mounting plate. The section of o-ring runs parallel to the spraybar and is a little longer that the head bolt washer diameter. When you tighten the head stud nut, the washer squishes the o-ring into the void. The void is only on one side so you only need to add o-ring to one side of the spraybar. I called RBRE and they couldn't tell me the section width of the o-ring off hand but said they would send me some o-ring material for free. I thanked them but said that I would source some o-ring material locally. Home Depot had an o-ring repair pack with several different sizes o-rings (0.060", 0.090", 0.120") in the plumbing section. I tried several different sized until I found one that fit in there the best (0.090"). Each time I tried an o-ring, I torqued the nut, ran the drill motor primer and watched for leak volume. When I found the best o-ring to use, the leak was just a small dribble. Bigger was not better with the o-ring size. The section that gave the smallest leak was the 0.090" diameter in the o-ring pack. I was never able to get a completely leak free setup. Upon further investigation, I realized that somewhere along the line my build switched to pushrod oiling. Maybe the builder was going that way all along but we never discussed that detail. My Comp Elite roller lifters are built for pushrod oiling and the pushrods are hollow so that's the strategy.

I was still concerned with how the rocker mounting plates were orientated. They come as a left and right set but neither of my mounting plate sets have any type of external marking so you can tell which is which. The right side mounting plate has a little relief cut into the underside of the spraybar at the #4 cam journal cylinder head bolt hole in the mounting plate that allows oil to come up through a passage and feed into the spray bar. You can see this by looking at the underside of the plate, through the head bolt hole and looking at the underside of the spraybar. And the left mounting plate has the same relief but it is offset in the other direction from the right side mounting plate. So there is a right side and a left side mounting plate if you want to use spray bar oiling! I was able to use a hook tool to probe that area under the spray bar with the cylinder head stud removed. Sure enough, my mounting plates were on backwards blocking oil to the feeds in the spray bars. I'm really not sure if this was done by accident or on purpose but I'm pushrod oiling. So with the plates on backwards, the oil coming up through the block has nowhere to go. Maybe that's why I was never able to completely eliminate the leak. If I take it apart, I'll change the restrictors in the block to completely block the oil flow. You really have to go through the RBRE rocker setup to understand how all this oiling magic works and how things work with your specific build. They call these engines Hemiroids for a reason wink

The motor had quite a bit of dyno time on it getting the EFI to learn before I picked it up and there were no signs of excessive heat or other lubrication issues in the valvetrain. I suppose that without the o-ring sections in there, there was lots of oil up in the rocker area but the dyno sheets showed plenty of oil pressure so I imagine that the restrictors in the block were limiting the leak. So in the end it all made sense ... pushrod oiling, no spray bar, mounting plates reversed in orientation to block off the spray bar oiling, restrictors in the block. The only issue was the missing section on o-ring. And while I was trying to figure all this out, I talked to RBRE and they said that pushrod oiling is good with the RBRE/T&D system. They said that sometimes if you are not super careful with cleanliness, it only takes a little fleck of crud to plug one of the pinholes in the spraybar pipes. I believe that the spraybar pipes have minute screw-in plugs on each end but I never tried to remove one and clean inside there. Ok - that's my experience. I can provide pictures of the underside of the rocker mounting plates if you can't figure out what the spraybar feed hole looks like. I have a spare set of mounting plates on the self that were customized and didn't fit my Stage V replacement head rocker pattern so I had to buy a replacement set from RBRE $$$ ouch but it really is a nice setup!!

I found some pictures ... the second one shows the little section of o-ring trapped in there under the washer. Sorry about the rotation ... they show upright in my pictures folder.

.

220610HemiRockerSetup.jpg220626HemiRbreRockerSetupORing.jpg
Last edited by rumblefish72; 01/05/23 12:49 AM.

1972 Pro-Street 'Cuda, 500" Eagle stoker B Block, Eddy RPM heads, Victor Manifold, 850 Mighty Demon, Hemi 4 Speed, Dana 60 w/4.88 gears - Built by Hansen Racing Middlesex - NJ
Re: Hemi guys- Barton T&D rockers... [Re: rumblefish72] #3108758
01/05/23 02:24 AM
01/05/23 02:24 AM
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Awesome info Rumblefish!!!

I'm stripping mine down in two weeks. Good thing I looked, I just assumed it was good to go!
The "section" of o ring is contradictory to a full stat-o-seal no? (just needs a portion of area around the bolt shank sealed) I assume under the head bolt washer is a machined groove that doesn't fit tight to the shank of the bolt? A section of o ring used to block that area so the oil feeds directly into the tube?

Once you repaired did you take a good look at the oiling? Yours only lubricates exhaust rockers? Do the intakes require oiling if no pushrod oiling? I guess I'll be digging in!?! lol

Thanks for the pic and the writeup, it helps!!!


CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Re: Hemi guys- Barton T&D rockers... [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #3108975
01/05/23 02:37 PM
01/05/23 02:37 PM
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Temperance, MI
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68 HEMI GTS Offline
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My set came with 2 sections of cut o-ring to go under the washer. I plugged mine off to push rod oil it.


68 Dart GTS "HEMI" 10.30 @ 131 pump gas street car 3780#
69 Roadrunner 511 six pack 10.92 drive to track street car
Re: Hemi guys- Barton T&D rockers... [Re: 68 HEMI GTS] #3136858
04/10/23 12:14 AM
04/10/23 12:14 AM
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Welllllll.....?
I'm now in "correct me if I'm wrong" mode......

Barton told me to use a .10" o ring under the washer to fix the oil leak. He said a portion of the o ring. I thought around the bolt, and cut out the section that is occupied by the spray bar. NOPE!!!!! It's the machining in the rocker base piece that allows oil under the washer, which can then spray out either way because the spray bar is round and can't possibly seal to the washer.. Barton uses a STRAIGHT piece of the o ring, then lies it down between the spray bar and the edge of the rocker base, attempting to seal the area that can't contain the oil. Pretty sure that's the idea.

Here's what I'm now dealing with lol


bartonoil1.jpeg

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Re: Hemi guys- Barton T&D rockers... [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #3136859
04/10/23 12:21 AM
04/10/23 12:21 AM
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The oil machining leaves the base notched up to right under the head bolt washer. Oil can then spray either direction- front or rear- because there is a triangular trench left under the head of the washer, Barton lays a piece of o ring material in this trench and fastens the head bolt on top of it. Doesn't usually completely seal but brings oil flow escaping down to a dribble.....

HERE IS MY QUESTION!!!!!
Can I buy a larger diameter piece of Viton cord, Use a razor or exacto knife and produce a triangular piece of viton that almost completely fills the void, then clamp the washer down on top and seal far better than an o ring would???

bartonoil2.jpeg

CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Re: Hemi guys- Barton T&D rockers... [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #3140184
04/23/23 03:13 PM
04/23/23 03:13 PM
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I ended up using .103 Viton with a 75 durometer. We shall see. Hopefully a couple weeks it will be running if all looks well.
Barton said "any .10' rubber o ring" is what he uses. Viton takes the heat and 75 durometer is a little softer than 90 to take the shape of the area which is odd shaped.


CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Re: Hemi guys- Barton T&D rockers... [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #3140309
04/24/23 09:08 AM
04/24/23 09:08 AM
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You'd think for what that setup costs they'd have a better solution to sealing that oil up. rolleyes


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Re: Hemi guys- Barton T&D rockers... [Re: an8sec70cuda] #3140314
04/24/23 09:43 AM
04/24/23 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda
You'd think for what that setup costs they'd have a better solution to sealing that oil up. rolleyes


Those are not cheap systems for sure...As much as I want a set, glad to hear later revisions were updated for that.....In the end, I made my own spray bars for right around $200 when all was said and done, but I do keep an eye out for how the big spenders make the Barton T&D setup work...


I really like how Noonan did it...They put an oil galley in each head and drilled small holes where oil spray was needed....

Last edited by Dragula; 04/24/23 09:44 AM.

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Re: Hemi guys- Barton T&D rockers... [Re: an8sec70cuda] #3140538
04/25/23 12:24 AM
04/25/23 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda
You'd think for what that setup costs they'd have a better solution to sealing that oil up. rolleyes


I did my best at the solution Barton gave me. Hopefully it works well. Will see. My car is small and has a butterfly hood. Add to that downbars. Pulling the covers wasn’t fun.
This is the absolute best I could get.

D5CAE257-753E-4698-82A1-4347AE8FA238.jpeg

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