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Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make?
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3106428
12/29/22 04:11 PM
12/29/22 04:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,931
NC
440Jim
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Jim, I am curious to see if you happened to measure actual lift as well. I am surprised how many folks don't. Can be eye opening to see what is lost at the valve. Might be surprised especially with an offset rocker how much it can be sometimes. But you guys are not running really large load springs either but might be a good experiment to see... I am only running 775 lbs open pressure. These are the T-D paired rockers (5/8 shaft) for the B1 original heads, 1.7 ratio. And I have intake lifters with the offset pushrod seat to help straighten the pushrod. Al, it is your lucky day. It is sunny and 61 deg this afternoon, so I opened the garage door and did your test. Last week we had overnight low temps between 7-15 degs. Unfortunately, I never measured the valve lift with checking springs; so there is no "actual" rocker ratio to compare these numbers against. I did measure actual lobe lift when degreeing the cam, and it was right on the cam card numbers, 0.480/0.470 I measured the valve lash today, and turned the crank by hand to measure valve lift. I was surprised ! 
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Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make?
[Re: 440Jim]
#3106442
12/29/22 05:26 PM
12/29/22 05:26 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,292
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Bend,OR USA
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Jim, I am curious to see if you happened to measure actual lift as well. I am surprised how many folks don't. Can be eye opening to see what is lost at the valve. Might be surprised especially with an offset rocker how much it can be sometimes. But you guys are not running really large load springs either but might be a good experiment to see... I am only running 775 lbs open pressure. These are the T-D paired rockers (5/8 shaft) for the B1 original heads, 1.7 ratio. And I have intake lifters with the offset pushrod seat to help straighten the pushrod. Al, it is your lucky day. It is sunny and 61 deg this afternoon, so I opened the garage door and did your test. Last week we had overnight low temps between 7-15 degs. Unfortunately, I never measured the valve lift with checking springs; so there is no "actual" rocker ratio to compare these numbers against. I did measure actual lobe lift when degreeing the cam, and it was right on the cam card numbers, 0.480/0.470 I measured the valve lash today, and turned the crank by hand to measure valve lift. I was surprised ! That is AWESOME  
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make?
[Re: dvw]
#3106729
12/30/22 05:19 PM
12/30/22 05:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,016
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
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I measured lift on the intake at zero lash as . 838, versus . 868 gross on the cam card. So net lift at the vale will be down somewhere between .030 and .0 at 6400 to 7600 rpm. I assume the real loss of lift will be on the opening flank. Wish i had a spintron! Or a bigger cam core, etc . An engine pro peofgram predicted .030 loss of lift.
Last edited by gregsdart; 12/30/22 05:21 PM.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make?
[Re: 440Jim]
#3106840
12/31/22 01:08 AM
12/31/22 01:08 AM
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Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
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Greg,
Thanks for doing the test. Now we have a few data points.
Did you ever measure the valve lift with light checking springs to get the "actual" rocker ratio? I did not.
And you have Jesel 1.7 rockers? and what wall thickness pushrods? jesel 1.7 rockers, pushrods are Manton 7/16 dual taper. I didn't test with checking springs.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make?
[Re: gregsdart]
#3106950
12/31/22 01:58 PM
12/31/22 01:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,382
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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I would be willing to bet Jims T&D's deal is a tad over the advertised ratio, which is not that unusual for them. Greg results are much more in line with what I would expect. Especially with a small core.
FWIW we run a 60MM in the Vette and loose almost .065" of lift at the valve with the actual springs vs checkers. Thats with a 1/2" pushrod and a steel rocker. My new build is right at .045" lift with the actual springs installed. Something we always consider when building stuff with a bit more cam and spring. Mine use a 1/2" double taper pushrod because of using a tie bar lifter. Both those I listed use a LOT more spring that Gregs build is using my new Predator is 1130 open, the Vette is well north of that but the steel rocker does make a difference.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make?
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3107165
01/01/23 10:20 AM
01/01/23 10:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,016
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
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I would be willing to bet Jims T&D's deal is a tad over the advertised ratio, which is not that unusual for them. Greg results are much more in line with what I would expect. Especially with a small core.
FWIW we run a 60MM in the Vette and loose almost .065" of lift at the valve with the actual springs vs checkers. Thats with a 1/2" pushrod and a steel rocker. My new build is right at .045" lift with the actual springs installed. Something we always consider when building stuff with a bit more cam and spring. Mine use a 1/2" double taper pushrod because of using a tie bar lifter. Both those I listed use a LOT more spring that Gregs build is using my new Predator is 1130 open, the Vette is well north of that but the steel rocker does make a difference. Al, just how spendy is a clamshell cam, and what gains are expected?
Last edited by gregsdart; 01/01/23 10:25 AM.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make?
[Re: gregsdart]
#3107222
01/01/23 01:23 PM
01/01/23 01:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,382
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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Greg it is STUPID expensive. The gain is a larger cam core and less flex. Cam is well over an inch of lift. At this point we phyically cannot put more lobe on a 60MM cam, it wont go in the block. So cost of machining the block for a clamshell bearing, the billet steel cam core and the clamshells themselves put the project in the multiples of thousands of dollars. But we are loosing so much lift that we need to make the change. Pretty common in Comp, the SBC part is the issues. Other blocks can be built with more cam bore. Dart would not even put a 60MM cam in their block. We had to send it to NJ to have that done at Weston Machine.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make?
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3107269
01/01/23 04:23 PM
01/01/23 04:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,016
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
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Wow! That info really pointss out why a four valve head combo is so superior to two. The expense of competing with a two valve combo in comp etc must be horrendous. After taking in all rhe info on hear, in the quest for more power it would seem a procharger would be the cheapest route to a faster et, and the extra weight up front would help! I suppose my cage would need at least a 7.50 cert minimum, maybe more things because of a supercharger.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make?
[Re: gregsdart]
#3108257
01/03/23 07:36 PM
01/03/23 07:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,149
Melbourne , Australia
LA360
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master
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Melbourne , Australia
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I would be willing to bet Jims T&D's deal is a tad over the advertised ratio, which is not that unusual for them. Greg results are much more in line with what I would expect. Especially with a small core.
FWIW we run a 60MM in the Vette and loose almost .065" of lift at the valve with the actual springs vs checkers. Thats with a 1/2" pushrod and a steel rocker. My new build is right at .045" lift with the actual springs installed. Something we always consider when building stuff with a bit more cam and spring. Mine use a 1/2" double taper pushrod because of using a tie bar lifter. Both those I listed use a LOT more spring that Gregs build is using my new Predator is 1130 open, the Vette is well north of that but the steel rocker does make a difference. Al, just how spendy is a clamshell cam, and what gains are expected? In Australian Dollars, a clamshell camshaft, ready to go in to the block, is around $7K Aud. That would be around $3500 - 4000 US dollars at a guess. The Clamshell bearing come with their own issues.
Alan Jones
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Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make?
[Re: LA360]
#3108266
01/03/23 08:14 PM
01/03/23 08:14 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,470
Sydney,Australia
tex013
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In Australian Dollars, a clamshell camshaft, ready to go in to the block, is around $7K Aud. That would be around $3500 - 4000 US dollars at a guess.
The Clamshell bearing come with their own issues. [/quote]
Strewth !
Tex
New best ET 10.259@129.65 .
New best MPH 130.32
Finally fitted a solid cam,
stepped it up a bit more
3690lbs through the mufflers
New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm
Power by Tex's Automotive
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Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make?
[Re: tex013]
#3108359
01/04/23 09:02 AM
01/04/23 09:02 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,182
Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl
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Plymouth, MI
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Good luck today!! Hope for some stellar numbers.
'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
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Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make?
[Re: SportF]
#3108375
01/04/23 10:28 AM
01/04/23 10:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,045
MN
JERICOGTX
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Hope it goes well for you Greg. Looking forward to a detailed report.
69 GTX
68 Road Runner
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Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make?
[Re: LA360]
#3108469
01/04/23 03:15 PM
01/04/23 03:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,382
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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In Australian Dollars, a clamshell camshaft, ready to go in to the block, is around $7K Aud. That would be around $3500 - 4000 US dollars at a guess.
The Clamshell bearing come with their own issues. When you get to this level everything has its issues. In a std block SBC there is no other option to get the lift we are after. As stated Dart would not even put a 60MM bearing in their SBC aluminum block. We had a hard enough time to convince them to make the deck height as low as we needed as well. We had to have a blank block sent to Weston. Well aware of the issues with clamshells but since Ryan was in on all the Aussie PS stuff in the beginning at RWR its not like we are going in blind either.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make?
[Re: gregsdart]
#3108499
01/04/23 03:58 PM
01/04/23 03:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,931
NC
440Jim
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I have a dyno session scheduled for Jan 4 at 8 am ct at R&R Dyno Service in Spring lake Park mn. Outdoor weather this afternoon near the dyno.
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Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3108569
01/04/23 07:13 PM
01/04/23 07:13 PM
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Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
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Internet at the moment here is SLOW. DYNO SHEETS TO COME LATER.
It made 957 hp at 7400 rpm, 768 tq at 5300, lowest rpm tested. I think Dwayne hit it on the head, no back cut on the valves is not working
Here. I tested some 9 year old M5 I had that tested dead on at .807, made 968.7 hp at 7300, 772 tq at 5700. I was way off my goal, but plan to back cut the valves and run that way. I put a lot into this motor and only gained 31 hp. That's life though. Sometimes you gain, sometimes not. Now to figure out what to do. I had only 2 inch vacuum, have leaks at the valley Plate to head area. So maybe 20 hp there.
Last edited by gregsdart; 01/04/23 07:27 PM.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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