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Stock stroke 440/Aluminum heads cam choice #3097582
11/27/22 04:29 PM
11/27/22 04:29 PM
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Coram, NY
Pool Fixer Offline OP
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Current setup is 440
stock stroke .30 overbore
stock steel crank
SRP pistons on stock LY rods
MP cam. .474 lift, duration 280@ .050"
stock 446 heads with 2.14/1.81 manley stainless valves. bowls bleneded but no other porting.
Performer RPM w/speed demon 750 carb.
builder told me it's 10:1 I ran it around for many years on 93 octane fuel.

the only performance data point I have is that it ran a 13.1 @112mph (lousy 60 foot, no traction) in my 68 charger with a 3.55 gear and 1 7/8" headers.

Currently has 3.91 gear and HP exhaust manifolds

I thik it ran pretty good for what it is which is a sub 400hp engine in a heavy car. I'd like to install a set of 440 source heads and new cam with headers. At this point with the larger volume heads, I'd probably spring for a set of 2" primary headers instead of putting the 1 7/8" back on.

I'd like a 500hp streetable engine and I do plan on installing an EZ efi 2.0 which I already have. I wouldn't do that until after I ran it around for a while on new heads/cam/headers.

questions:
1) what would be a good cam for this setup keeping in mind I want to convert it to EFI? I'm not sure if the newer self tuning efi's need strong vacuum signal at idle.
2) Is the juice worth the squeeze to go with a hydraulic roller?
3) considering this is a street build, is getting the cnc ported source heads necessary?
4) the EZ efi 2.0 that I bought 7 years ago is still new in the box. I see they still make it. does that mean this is ok to use or is there some other throttle body self learning system I should be considering?

Car hasn't run in 7 years... sitting in the garage collecting dust and I'm going to get it back on the road this winter.
Forgive me if I'm asking dumb questions. I used to live on Moparts but haven't been on in so long and I haven't kept up with anything.

Last edited by Pool Fixer; 11/27/22 04:46 PM.

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Re: Stock stroke 440/Aluminum heads cam choice [Re: Pool Fixer] #3097631
11/27/22 08:31 PM
11/27/22 08:31 PM
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Warren, MI
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heres my 2 cents on your setup which is similar to mine...

1) what would be a good cam for this setup keeping in mind I want to convert it to EFI? I'm not sure if the newer self tuning efi's need strong vacuum signal at idle. personally i like the mopar 528 mechanical cam, i run the 557 lift cam in my 446 but for efi the 528 cam would do better
2) Is the juice worth the squeeze to go with a hydraulic roller? for a street car probably not.
3) considering this is a street build, is getting the cnc ported source heads necessary? for a street car probably not
4) the EZ efi 2.0 that I bought 7 years ago is still new in the box. I see they still make it. does that mean this is ok to use or is there some other throttle body self learning system I should be considering? use what you go. both the sni[er and fitech all seem to have their successes and failures.

also i'd stick with the smaller headers.


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Re: Stock stroke 440/Aluminum heads cam choice [Re: Pool Fixer] #3097676
11/28/22 12:47 AM
11/28/22 12:47 AM
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You don't need 2 inch headers, if you need new headers I'd go with 1 3/4 inch. You don't need anything larger for a 500 hp 440 inch engine.
You'll want to keep the cam fairly small and maybe spread the lobes to 112 for better vacuum signal. I'd think something in the 220 to 230 range at 050 is as big as I'd go. Hyd roller is nice but expensive. Maybe talk to Oregon Cam Grinders and see if they have something for that engine.

Re: Stock stroke 440/Aluminum heads cam choice [Re: Jerry] #3097688
11/28/22 04:03 AM
11/28/22 04:03 AM
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s. e. pa.
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Re: Stock stroke 440/Aluminum heads cam choice [Re: calrobb2000] #3097705
11/28/22 10:02 AM
11/28/22 10:02 AM
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Coram, NY
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Awesome replies so far! I appreciate the feedback. I believe I mispoke in my original post about the headers. The ones I removed and still have are 1 3/4" primaries. Truth be told i'd be ok if they never went back on. I like the look of the HP manifolds but I don't know if i'll be choking it off too much with my planned changes. Also, I'd like to stick with a hydraulic cam. Big plans for this car as when I "put it away" I was just starting a business and had no time/money to devote to the hobby. Thankfully, I have more of both and I'm gonna make it into the car i always wanted it to be.


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Re: Stock stroke 440/Aluminum heads cam choice [Re: Pool Fixer] #3097747
11/28/22 12:02 PM
11/28/22 12:02 PM
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HP manifolds work just fine at 500 hp. I've built a bunch of different big blocks with HP manifolds and they plenty of power for a street car. Cam choice is critical with HP manifolds so talk to an expert. And make sure it is a real expert, not some kid on a tech line.

Here is an article that I wrote a long time ago on the subject. The technology has changed a little bit since then but probably not enough to make much of a difference: http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/bb/Lobe.html

Re: Stock stroke 440/Aluminum heads cam choice [Re: AndyF] #3097748
11/28/22 12:07 PM
11/28/22 12:07 PM
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Coram, NY
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Originally Posted by AndyF
HP manifolds work just fine at 500 hp. I've built a bunch of different big blocks with HP manifolds and they plenty of power for a street car. Cam choice is critical with HP manifolds so talk to an expert. And make sure it is a real expert, not some kid on a tech line.

Here is an article that I wrote a long time ago on the subject. The technology has changed a little bit since then but probably not enough to make much of a difference: http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/bb/Lobe.html


I rember you! haven't clicked the link yet but didnt you make 500hp with manifolds and ported edelbrock heads?


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Re: Stock stroke 440/Aluminum heads cam choice [Re: Pool Fixer] #3097768
11/28/22 01:14 PM
11/28/22 01:14 PM
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Omaha Ne
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My only comment is to think twice on the EFI. I do not like using 40 FT of rubber hose nor do I like the braided crap so those I have installed have all been hard plumbed except for short pieces of hose at the motor and tank.
there are advantages, but also disadvantages.

The D/A's customers have had are:
Component failures while out of town
Finding someone to take on those problems while out of town or if the installing shop is no longer in business
Some companies only Support the product for X years ( butare willing to UPGADE YOU) down
Company is sold.

Advantages:
Instant starting after extended storage
Tunability
Idle speed compensation for A/C if equipped.

All of the above can be accomplished with a good carb and a lot less cost/ time.twocents beer

Google "Fast EFI problems"



Last edited by TJP; 11/28/22 01:14 PM.
Re: Stock stroke 440/Aluminum heads cam choice [Re: Pool Fixer] #3097786
11/28/22 01:49 PM
11/28/22 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Pool Fixer
Originally Posted by AndyF
HP manifolds work just fine at 500 hp. I've built a bunch of different big blocks with HP manifolds and they plenty of power for a street car. Cam choice is critical with HP manifolds so talk to an expert. And make sure it is a real expert, not some kid on a tech line.

Here is an article that I wrote a long time ago on the subject. The technology has changed a little bit since then but probably not enough to make much of a difference: http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/bb/Lobe.html


I rember you! haven't clicked the link yet but didnt you make 500hp with manifolds and ported edelbrock heads?


Depends on the engine. I've made close to 600 hp with HP manifolds on a street engine. The FAST guys make a lot more than that but their engines are not very street friendly. I'd say that 500 hp is fairly easy to do with a stock stroke 440. You need to pick the correct parts but you should be able to do it with off the shelf stuff. The key is getting help from someone who actually knows what they are talking about. I have several articles on my website that you can scroll thru. I did the HP manifold journey for about 20 years and I documented much of it.

https://arengineering.com/tech/

Re: Stock stroke 440/Aluminum heads cam choice [Re: AndyF] #3097882
11/28/22 06:57 PM
11/28/22 06:57 PM
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IL
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High 400's for the horsepower with HP exhaust manifolds and mildly ported iron heads shouldn't be too hard to accomplish. It seems to be easier to get over 500 when you start putting some compression into it and you won't be pump gas friendly. With exhaust manifolds, you need a cam that has minimal overlap (unlike the 110 LSA on that cam in there). So if you want a choppy idle to sound cool, headers and cam overlap are your friend. If you are cool with a milder idle sound and making power with exhaust manifolds, you can get them to work pretty well. I'd recommend a Bob K "Mr Six Pack" cam or calling Dwayne Porter for something custom, Andy's testing articles he linked to above are good info too...

Re: Stock stroke 440/Aluminum heads cam choice [Re: 83hurstguy] #3097910
11/28/22 08:01 PM
11/28/22 08:01 PM
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Central NC
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I think the cam you have is a good one. One of my favorite old school mopar cams for a mild big block. It would be worth running it (with headers a plus) and 440 source heads IMO.

Are the cnc heads a must? Absolutely not. However with them everything else becomes more efficient and your end goal is easier to achieve IMO. With the crappy metal for newer cams and lifters keeping what you have and putting that $$$ towards the cnc option is money well spent IMO. A set of 1.6 roller rockers to top it off would be my move.

On the headers 1 3/4 is sufficient but with the 3.91 gears and better heads don't be afraid of the 1 7/8 either.

I can't help on the efi , so I will leave that to others.

Here is an excellent write up on a stock stroke 440 and what to expect out of it. http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=gh6378ukfmrvmjveq530v9ha02&topic=106687.0

Last edited by gch; 11/28/22 08:03 PM.
Re: Stock stroke 440/Aluminum heads cam choice [Re: 83hurstguy] #3098034
11/29/22 10:11 AM
11/29/22 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by 83hurstguy
High 400's for the horsepower with HP exhaust manifolds and mildly ported iron heads shouldn't be too hard to accomplish. It seems to be easier to get over 500 when you start putting some compression into it and you won't be pump gas friendly. With exhaust manifolds, you need a cam that has minimal overlap (unlike the 110 LSA on that cam in there). So if you want a choppy idle to sound cool, headers and cam overlap are your friend. If you are cool with a milder idle sound and making power with exhaust manifolds, you can get them to work pretty well. I'd recommend a Bob K "Mr Six Pack" cam or calling Dwayne Porter for something custom, Andy's testing articles he linked to above are good info too...


Contact Dwayne Porter , member fast68plymouth , he's in burlington Vt. , not sure how far that is from you. If you go with the source heads get the CNC'd versions or at least send them to Dwayne to clean them up and change out any questionable parts. And for gods sake don't buy cheap chinese junk roller rockers ...


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Re: Stock stroke 440/Aluminum heads cam choice [Re: Pool Fixer] #3098214
11/29/22 09:59 PM
11/29/22 09:59 PM
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Prospect, PA
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Can you clarify a little on your goal? First, do you have the time slip to confirm your past track results? How long ago was that and is that still the same short block you have now with the posted info?

If you went 112 mph in a typical 4000 lb race weight B Body with the old set-up, you were probably in the 450+ hp range, not less than 400 as you suggested. So are you looking for 500 hp (maybe 30 hp more that before) or are you looking for 100+ additional hp?

I agree with the others, 500 hp (lets call it 113-115 mph in decent air) with manifolds is not too hard - you just need a good plan.

Yes, CNC or port the heads. It makes achieving the goal easier.

I would get someone to recommend a custom cam for the application. Consider a solid flat tappet. Probably something a little larger than the Bob K cam. Bob's cam is good, but constrained by the Pure Stock rules.

I have no advice regarding the EFI.

Re: Stock stroke 440/Aluminum heads cam choice [Re: BSB67] #3099570
12/04/22 06:26 PM
12/04/22 06:26 PM
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Coram, NY
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I had a tile slip with this car and engine. It may have been 108 or 109 but def 13.094 time. I’d have to look. As for how old that is.. well- it was at the Westhampon track lol. Prob late 90’s. The only changes I made to the car since:

Went from 1 3/4 headers to hp manifolds.
Went from 3.55 sure grip to 3.91’s.
Edelbrock box stock carb to speed demon carb.

Someone mentioned efi and fuel line. Back when I put the 440 in the car put in a 3/8” steel fuel line and kept the factory 5/16” line used as the fuel return for a Holly projection I used to run. Yes, I like torturing myself lol .

Dug it out from the garage today and towed it to my shop

C1DB38B5-C6AB-4469-9416-59CF6E96A698.jpegF3583242-FC51-4A12-A008-D1E188773A0F.jpeg39E43740-7E8F-4D1E-B4E6-C4A43888DD1B.jpeg
Last edited by Pool Fixer; 12/04/22 06:32 PM.

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Re: Stock stroke 440/Aluminum heads cam choice [Re: Pool Fixer] #3099684
12/05/22 01:21 AM
12/05/22 01:21 AM
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
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Originally Posted by Pool Fixer
I had a tile slip with this car and engine. It may have been 108 or 109 but def 13.094 time. I’d have to look. As for how old that is.. well- it was at the Westhampon track lol. Prob late 90’s. The only changes I made to the car since:

Went from 1 3/4 headers to hp manifolds.
Went from 3.55 sure grip to 3.91’s.
Edelbrock box stock carb to speed demon carb.

Someone mentioned efi and fuel line. Back when I put the 440 in the car put in a 3/8” steel fuel line and kept the factory 5/16” line used as the fuel return for a Holly projection I used to run. Yes, I like torturing myself lol .

Dug it out from the garage today and towed it to my shop


That's a really nice car. If there is an engine in it, please unload it and turn it around. It will prevent you from starring in any YouTube car trailer fail videos.

Kevin

Re: Stock stroke 440/Aluminum heads cam choice [Re: Twostick] #3099849
12/05/22 03:46 PM
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Coram, NY
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too late... it's already made its journey. What's wrong with towing it facing backwards? We strapped it down in 4 places... We didn't do it this way for any particular reason other than the brakes were semi locked up and it was a ball sack pain in the rear to turn it around. It's not a smart a$$ question... I want to know and if you tell me something that makes sense, I won't do it again.

I did manage to booger up the front edge of the pass side rear quarter. had dollies under the rear wheels and pushing it into my shop, they caught the lip, car rolled off dolly and dolly stayed... and to shot up and wedged between the front of the rear tire and the front of the rear quarter wheel opening.... As per my body shop guy, I have just committed a $600.00 F up which will he will remedy next week... freakin cars, man!

also ordered my tanks inc efi gas tank. hoping to have it running by Christmas.

Last edited by Pool Fixer; 12/05/22 03:47 PM.

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Re: Stock stroke 440/Aluminum heads cam choice [Re: Pool Fixer] #3099851
12/05/22 03:49 PM
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Re: Stock stroke 440/Aluminum heads cam choice [Re: Pool Fixer] #3099871
12/05/22 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Pool Fixer
too late... it's already made its journey. What's wrong with towing it facing backwards? We strapped it down in 4 places... We didn't do it this way for any particular reason other than the brakes were semi locked up and it was a ball sack pain in the rear to turn it around. It's not a smart a$$ question... I want to know and if you tell me something that makes sense, I won't do it again.



You should have more weight on the tongue vs the rear of the trailer , towing it like that with the majority of weight on the rear of the trailer if there's an engine in it .


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Re: Stock stroke 440/Aluminum heads cam choice [Re: JohnRR] #3099897
12/05/22 06:01 PM
12/05/22 06:01 PM
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Plymouth, MI
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Originally Posted by JohnRR
Originally Posted by Pool Fixer
too late... it's already made its journey. What's wrong with towing it facing backwards? We strapped it down in 4 places... We didn't do it this way for any particular reason other than the brakes were semi locked up and it was a ball sack pain in the rear to turn it around. It's not a smart a$$ question... I want to know and if you tell me something that makes sense, I won't do it again.



You should have more weight on the tongue vs the rear of the trailer , towing it like that with the majority of weight on the rear of the trailer if there's an engine in it .


Correct, it likely pulled at low speeds okay but that's an easy way to get into potentially unrecoverable trailer sway. I've taken a trailer tow class where they have 5k of weight on a movable platform on a flatbed trailer and we took turns driving it with the weight at the front, center, then rear of the trailer. They had limit straps so the trailer couldn't get past about 45*, and it got there easily in any type of braking or evasive maneuver with the weight at the rear of the trailer.


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Re: Stock stroke 440/Aluminum heads cam choice [Re: Blusmbl] #3099920
12/05/22 07:41 PM
12/05/22 07:41 PM
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Coram, NY
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Thought we were ok as this is a heavy equipment tilt bed and we left the car where it was when the bed had reached point where it tilted down. I thought this meant it was balanced. Hopefully I’m a good enough mechanic that it won’t need the trailer ever again!


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