Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 [Re: SportF] #3096473
11/23/22 07:52 AM
11/23/22 07:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,846
usa
L
lewtot184 Offline
master
lewtot184  Offline
master
L

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,846
usa
in my opinion total timing is dictated by cylinder pressure/chamber design/ quality of fuel. just because one guy does something doesn't mean you should. don't think that a total advance number is some blanket rule. the higher the cylinder pressure the less tolerant the engine is of it with a given fuel, and the more eficient the engine is the less timing it needs. i'm pretty sure the summit cam closes the intake valve around 61 degrees ABDC. that's fairly early when you consider that a stock magnum closes the intake valve at 67 ABDC, and that dosen't include all the closing ramp. i've found that some carbs in these stock engines are less tolerant to aggressive timing than others. i have a stock 440 that i've alternated between the factory 4618avs and a 1407 edelbrock. my initial thoughts were that these carbs are so close in size and function that ignition timing changes weren't necessary; wrong! i've had to learn thru the years that the vagueness the phrase "it depends" is relevant.

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 [Re: Ray S] #3096481
11/23/22 08:44 AM
11/23/22 08:44 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 4,996
nowhere
S
Sniper Offline
master
Sniper  Offline
master
S

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 4,996
nowhere
Originally Posted by Ray S
38 is from Basic Startup and Adjustment and Ignition Tuning for Maximum Performance taken directly from the Mopar Performance Small Block V-8 Electronic Ignition Kit instruction sheet
56 BTDC all in.
http://www.mopar1.us/engine2.html

Engine Heads Timing Specification
A Production - Pre '89 (Iron) 35 BTDC
A Production - '89 & Newer (Iron) 32 BTDC
A W2 (Iron) 35 BTDC
A W5 (Alum.) 35 BTDC
B/RB Production (Iron) 38 BTDC
B/RB Stage I, II, III, IV, V (Iron or Alum) 38 BTDC
B/RB Indy (Alum) 35 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Under 475 cu. in. 37-39 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Over 475 cu. in., Under 15.0:1 Ratio 36-38 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Over 475 cu. in., Over 15.0:1 Ratio 34-36 BTDC
B/RB B1 TS 34 BTDC
Hemi All (Iron or Alum) 35 BTDC


I can already tell you that there are issues with that list. Production A engines in the 80's are not all the same. The 318 went to swirl port closed chamber heads in mid 85. 360's didn't, they got a swirl head, but open chambered in 89. Then the Magnums came out and those heads bear little relationship to the earlier stuff. As is typical with MP, the info is poorly detailed. Being those guys were almost invariably straight line race only oriented they don't think of anything else and neglect to tell you that.

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 [Re: Sniper] #3096498
11/23/22 09:39 AM
11/23/22 09:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,846
usa
L
lewtot184 Offline
master
lewtot184  Offline
master
L

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,846
usa
Originally Posted by Sniper
Originally Posted by Ray S
38 is from Basic Startup and Adjustment and Ignition Tuning for Maximum Performance taken directly from the Mopar Performance Small Block V-8 Electronic Ignition Kit instruction sheet
56 BTDC all in.
http://www.mopar1.us/engine2.html

Engine Heads Timing Specification
A Production - Pre '89 (Iron) 35 BTDC
A Production - '89 & Newer (Iron) 32 BTDC
A W2 (Iron) 35 BTDC
A W5 (Alum.) 35 BTDC
B/RB Production (Iron) 38 BTDC
B/RB Stage I, II, III, IV, V (Iron or Alum) 38 BTDC
B/RB Indy (Alum) 35 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Under 475 cu. in. 37-39 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Over 475 cu. in., Under 15.0:1 Ratio 36-38 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Over 475 cu. in., Over 15.0:1 Ratio 34-36 BTDC
B/RB B1 TS 34 BTDC
Hemi All (Iron or Alum) 35 BTDC


I can already tell you that there are issues with that list. Production A engines in the 80's are not all the same. The 318 went to swirl port closed chamber heads in mid 85. 360's didn't, they got a swirl head, but open chambered in 89. Then the Magnums came out and those heads bear little relationship to the earlier stuff. As is typical with MP, the info is poorly detailed. Being those guys were almost invariably straight line race only oriented they don't think of anything else and neglect to tell you that.
"poorly detailed", or no details. devil's in the details. whole lot of difference between a straight line racer and somebody who wants a street cruiser. i used to build some engines for bracket racers years back (i never bracket raced because i disliked it) and can say from my experience that they are the last people i'd ask about a street tune-up.

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 [Re: lewtot184] #3096523
11/23/22 10:51 AM
11/23/22 10:51 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,144
Minn
S
SportF Offline
super stock
SportF  Offline
super stock
S

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,144
Minn
Drag racing advice I got years ago that I still like, "If everybody is doing it, its probably a good idea" Sort of a Yogi Berra kind of advice.

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 [Re: SportF] #3096542
11/23/22 11:45 AM
11/23/22 11:45 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 4,996
nowhere
S
Sniper Offline
master
Sniper  Offline
master
S

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 4,996
nowhere
Originally Posted by SportF
Drag racing advice I got years ago that I still like, "If everybody is doing it, its probably a good idea" Sort of a Yogi Berra kind of advice.


And if this were the race forum it might be relevant, then again so much of "what every one else is doing" is based on this thinking"


5 monkeys are locked in a cage, a banana was hung from the ceiling and a ladder was placed right underneath it.
As predicted, immediately, one of the monkeys would race towards the ladder, to grab the banana. However, as soon as he would start to climb, the researcher would spray the monkey with ice-cold water.
but here’s the kicker- In addition, he would also spray the other four monkeys…

When a second monkey tried to climb the ladder, the researcher would, again, spray the monkey with ice-cold water, As well as the other four watching monkeys;
This was repeated again and again until they learned their lesson
Climbing equals scary cold water for EVERYONE so No One Climbs the ladder.

Once the 5 monkeys knew the drill, the researcher replaced one of the monkeys with a new inexperienced one. As predicted, the new monkey spots the banana, and goes for the ladder. BUT, the other four monkeys, knowing the drill, jumped on the new monkey and beat him up. The beat up new guy thus Learns- NO going for the ladder and No Banana Period- without even knowing why! and also without ever being sprayed with water!

These actions get repeated with 3 more times, with a new monkey each time and ASTONISHINGLY each new monkey- who had never received the cold-water Spray himself (and didn’t even know anything about it), would Join the beating up of the New guy.

This is a classic example of Mob Mentality- bystanders and outsiders uninvolved with the fight- join in ‘just because’.

When the researcher replaced a third monkey, the same thing happened; likewise for the fourth until, eventually, all the monkeys had been replaced and none of the original ones are left in the cage (that had been sprayed by water).

Again, a new monkey was introduced into the cage. It ran toward the ladder only to get beaten up by the others. The monkey turns with a curious face asking “why do you beat me up when I try to get the banana?”
The other four monkeys stopped and looked at each other puzzled (None of them had been sprayed and so they really had no clue why the new guy can’t get the banana) but it didn’t matter, it was too late, the rules had been set. And So, although they didn’t know WHY, they beat up the monkey just because ” that’s the way we do things around here”…


If you don't know why everyone is doing it then you don't know anything, you are just another monkey.

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 [Re: Sniper] #3096545
11/23/22 11:56 AM
11/23/22 11:56 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,846
usa
L
lewtot184 Offline
master
lewtot184  Offline
master
L

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,846
usa
monkey see/monkey do = bracket racing; and a handful of credit cards.

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 [Re: Sniper] #3096553
11/23/22 12:29 PM
11/23/22 12:29 PM
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 131
PINE VALLEY
Ray S Offline
member
Ray S  Offline
member

Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 131
PINE VALLEY
Originally Posted by Sniper
Originally Posted by Ray S
38 is from Basic Startup and Adjustment and Ignition Tuning for Maximum Performance taken directly from the Mopar Performance Small Block V-8 Electronic Ignition Kit instruction sheet
56 BTDC all in.
http://www.mopar1.us/engine2.html

Engine Heads Timing Specification
A Production - Pre '89 (Iron) 35 BTDC
A Production - '89 & Newer (Iron) 32 BTDC
A W2 (Iron) 35 BTDC
A W5 (Alum.) 35 BTDC
B/RB Production (Iron) 38 BTDC
B/RB Stage I, II, III, IV, V (Iron or Alum) 38 BTDC
B/RB Indy (Alum) 35 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Under 475 cu. in. 37-39 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Over 475 cu. in., Under 15.0:1 Ratio 36-38 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Over 475 cu. in., Over 15.0:1 Ratio 34-36 BTDC
B/RB B1 TS 34 BTDC
Hemi All (Iron or Alum) 35 BTDC


I can already tell you that there are issues with that list. Production A engines in the 80's are not all the same. The 318 went to swirl port closed chamber heads in mid 85. 360's didn't, they got a swirl head, but open chambered in 89. Then the Magnums came out and those heads bear little relationship to the earlier stuff. As is typical with MP, the info is poorly detailed. Being those guys were almost invariably straight line race only oriented they don't think of anything else and neglect to tell you that.

I assume that that info is a bit dated, and, only even then pertained to OEM engines converting from points to the 1972+ electonic module.
My interest is bone stock 1971 413-1 so the numbers are likely fine.
I don't track run it
This heretic swapped an LS3 with supercharger...4L80E auto 4 speed
https://www.facebook.com/grizzly.hansen/videos/471409475036115/?idorvanity=358395874142

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 [Re: Sniper] #3096738
11/24/22 07:20 AM
11/24/22 07:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,144
Minn
S
SportF Offline
super stock
SportF  Offline
super stock
S

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,144
Minn
Wow, I never knew this forum was so tough. Too knowledgeable for me, thank you. Have a nice day.

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 [Re: SportF] #3096845
11/24/22 02:17 PM
11/24/22 02:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,885
CA
C
crackedback Offline
top fuel
crackedback  Offline
top fuel
C

Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,885
CA
Problem when taking advice from drag racers or the DC manual, they only care about mid-top end performance, idle doesn't matter because you let that setting fall where it may ( according to DC). Do you build a house roof (total timing) first, no you don't. The foundation (initial timing) is the thing all other events are driven from.

Not the case with a street driven car. I can hand you two distributors and have them timed at say whatever max HP is, ex 36*. Those two distributors will run wildly different at idle and off idle. Car smelling like it was a fuel truck dumping it's load out the exhaust with one... yep, fun stuff on a street driven car. Proper initial timing solves a LOT of "carb" problems as well.

Total timing method for a street driven car is a horrible way to do things. I've fixed hundreds of street cars over the years that were timed using that method and helped a bunch of drag cars pick up time in 60's because the engine was cleaner off the bottom.

Go time an engine by the book with the 0-5 btdc, set the carb up and put it in gear, then do it with the initial set at 16 btdc, set carb and pull in gear. See how it runs different. Easy test, if you have the car idling and warmed up, add a couple degrees of timing, if the engine picked up rpm, it wants the timing (Efficiency).

Sometimes there is a better method to approach things than the way the "bible" suggest, been proven for more than 30years.

Last edited by crackedback; 11/24/22 02:29 PM.
Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 [Re: SportF] #3096874
11/24/22 04:06 PM
11/24/22 04:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 17,245
north of coder
moparx Offline
"Butt Crack Bob"
moparx  Offline
"Butt Crack Bob"

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 17,245
north of coder
Originally Posted by SportF
Wow, I never knew this forum was so tough. Too knowledgeable for me, thank you. Have a nice day.




please don't take the posted replies as being a beating on you.
it's just that ALL engines of THE SAME combination[s] are SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT from each other, and [as member Cab says] REQUIRE TESTING, TESTING, TESTING to see what YOUR COMBINATION REQUIRES for it's optimal performance.
that includes ignition timing, carb tuning, and chassis tuning, and you won't optimize this in a 15 minute time period.
and believe this from an old dumb man, it took me years to understand and utilize information that is out there, and to separate the fact from the bull$hit.
please don't give up !
most on here want to help you, but [some] can't formulate their thought[s] into words that don't sound condescending or patronizing.
over the years i have been here, i have learned so much from everyone here, even if i didn't realize it at the time.
consequently, i try to pass on what i [think] i know to those that [may] need it. other do the same, but maybe in a way you may find issue with.
so please try some of these suggestions, and let us know what happens. up
beer

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 [Re: moparx] #3096896
11/24/22 05:23 PM
11/24/22 05:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,609
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
Too Many Posts
Pacnorthcuda  Offline
Too Many Posts

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,609
Kirkland, Washington
Not only does the fuel being used make a BIG difference, but so does the desired result. Is a person setting timing for all out performance or ZERO risk of detonation under all circumstances? Pretty hard to get both. I believe in 36 total mechanical, then check idle and if it’s 12-18 I’m good, otherwise I’m adjusting the advance in the distributor. Around 54 total with vacuum. I might be leaving a bit of performance on the table, but I’m not detonating.

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #3097044
11/25/22 01:06 PM
11/25/22 01:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 131
PINE VALLEY
Ray S Offline
member
Ray S  Offline
member

Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 131
PINE VALLEY
Originally Posted by Pacnorthcuda
Not only does the fuel being used make a BIG difference, but so does the desired result. Is a person setting timing for all out performance or ZERO risk of detonation under all circumstances? Pretty hard to get both. I believe in 36 total mechanical, then check idle and if it’s 12-18 I’m good, otherwise I’m adjusting the advance in the distributor. Around 54 total with vacuum. I might be leaving a bit of performance on the table, but I’m not detonating.

As the kit says, it is a 3 step measurement: initial, total mech, total with vacuum.
I had a dyno shop tweak my electronic dizzy as the curve as delivered was not optimal for best torque.
I've also found (and read) that with low compression peak HP timing will be significantly behind pinging value.

Page 2 of 2 1 2






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1