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413/440 crank pilot/register dimensions #3096160
11/21/22 08:42 PM
11/21/22 08:42 PM
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Ray S Offline OP
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I have seen conflicting numbers on crank end bores. This is the A727 auto from factory so probably not machined for manual.
I'm looking to machine a metrology part to check crank center dimensions vs the dowels - but I don't have the trans off yet and might not for some weeks.
I have the ZF trans pilot side done.

pilot.jpgCrankDepthDiam1.jpg
Last edited by Ray S; 11/21/22 08:43 PM.
Re: 413/440 crank pilot/register dimensions [Re: Ray S] #3096428
11/22/22 10:27 PM
11/22/22 10:27 PM
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shruggy bump

Re: 413/440 crank pilot/register dimensions [Re: Ray S] #3096438
11/22/22 11:12 PM
11/22/22 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Ray S
I have seen conflicting numbers on crank end bores. This is the A727 auto from factory so probably not machined for manual.
I'm looking to machine a metrology part to check crank center dimensions vs the dowels - but I don't have the trans off yet and might not for some weeks.
I have the ZF trans pilot side done.


What exactly are you looking for ?

What measurements.

Re: 413/440 crank pilot/register dimensions [Re: A727Tflite] #3096548
11/23/22 01:05 PM
11/23/22 01:05 PM
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Ray S Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Transman
Originally Posted by Ray S
I have seen conflicting numbers on crank end bores. This is the A727 auto from factory so probably not machined for manual.
I'm looking to machine a metrology part to check crank center dimensions vs the dowels - but I don't have the trans off yet and might not for some weeks.
I have the ZF trans pilot side done.


What exactly are you looking for ?

What measurements.

In the pics above, left one has .875 & .938 and the other .890 and .850
The larger might be for the manual shaft bushing, and the other the automatic?
The 2.225 depth indications also disagree on how it is measured.
I have the steel flange adapter but it is bored for the ZF's TC nose

IMG_3099.JPG
Re: 413/440 crank pilot/register dimensions [Re: Ray S] #3096565
11/23/22 02:13 PM
11/23/22 02:13 PM
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The crank bore, when finish reamed for a factory bushing, will measure .9375" (15/16"). For the crank that isn't finish reamed for a bushing, they usually measure .915" which is the size the aftermarket bushings are made for but I've measured crank bores that weren't either. IOW, it seems that the initial pilot bore is inconsistent, the final ream size, however, is always .9375".

As to the depth, I've never measured it.


The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
Re: 413/440 crank pilot/register dimensions [Re: John_Kunkel] #3096591
11/23/22 03:24 PM
11/23/22 03:24 PM
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Thanks!
It looks like I'll have to wait until I pull the 727 to be certain.

Re: 413/440 crank pilot/register dimensions [Re: Ray S] #3096854
11/24/22 04:01 PM
11/24/22 04:01 PM
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i just measured a 440 crank in an engine i have on the stand.
it happens to be an eagle 8 bolt crank, so take these dimensions for what they are worth.
the torque converter register bore is 1.812 in diameter, and .668 deep.
the second pilot hole is as Mr. Kunkle said, .9375 in diameter, and is 1.050 deep from the .668 converter depth, or 1.718 deep from the flange.
the final pilot hole is .845 in diameter, and is 1.700 deep from the .668 converter depth, or 2.368 deep from the flange. this is the depth of the diameter to where the shoulder of the drill stops. it does not include the drill taper or point depth.
this is just what i have on my crank that is easily measurable.
your crank will vary..............[just thought of something funny after i wrote that. laugh2]
beer

Last edited by moparx; 11/24/22 04:04 PM. Reason: clarifying the final diameter depth
Re: 413/440 crank pilot/register dimensions [Re: Ray S] #3096872
11/24/22 04:55 PM
11/24/22 04:55 PM
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Don't worry about installing a pilot busing, I switch to the 1996 and newer pilot bearings, way better to use and install scope wrench twocents


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 413/440 crank pilot/register dimensions [Re: moparx] #3097039
11/25/22 01:56 PM
11/25/22 01:56 PM
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Ray S Offline OP
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Originally Posted by moparx
i just measured a 440 crank in an engine i have on the stand.
beer

Was it from a manual or auto?

Re: 413/440 crank pilot/register dimensions [Re: Ray S] #3097040
11/25/22 01:58 PM
11/25/22 01:58 PM
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I'll bet that all the aftermarket cranks are drill for the stock bushings, maybe not confused


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 413/440 crank pilot/register dimensions [Re: Cab_Burge] #3097041
11/25/22 02:00 PM
11/25/22 02:00 PM
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Ray S Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Don't worry about installing a pilot busing, I switch to the 1996 and newer pilot bearings, way better to use and install scope wrench twocents

I'm machining a centering tool to check the shaft alignment of crank to input shaft of the 8 speed auto. It will capture the new dowel pins precisely and I can the measure any difference when mounted on eng vs bellhousing

Re: 413/440 crank pilot/register dimensions [Re: Ray S] #3097049
11/25/22 02:12 PM
11/25/22 02:12 PM
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north of coder
moparx Offline
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Ray, my crank was used with a 727, but being an aftermarket crank, i figure it might be usable for both ? shruggy
beer

Re: 413/440 crank pilot/register dimensions [Re: moparx] #3097066
11/25/22 03:03 PM
11/25/22 03:03 PM
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Ray S Offline OP
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Originally Posted by moparx
Ray, my crank was used with a 727, but being an aftermarket crank, i figure it might be usable for both ? shruggy
beer

Probably, or at least one would hope, right?

John Vinson got back to me: (http://www.jvxracing.com/CustomerCars.htm)
Quote
Ray, Your drawing is for a 833 four speed strait stick/manual. Outside diameter ( aligns flex plate) is 2.120,

Inside diameter( torque converter hub alignment) is 1.820. depth is .675 on the outer edge, .683 ( 11/16) Middle section.
Both cranks were the same except some did not have the hole drilled for the strait stick/manual transmissions.

with even more slightly different dimensions...
Since I want the alignment plug to be within .001 fitment it looks like I'll wait to pull my trans, then clean up and measure.

Last edited by Ray S; 11/25/22 03:03 PM.
Re: 413/440 crank pilot/register dimensions [Re: Ray S] #3097270
11/26/22 01:48 PM
11/26/22 01:48 PM
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moparx Offline
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it will be interesting to see what you find out.
please post the numbers you come up with on your crank.
it looks like quality control may be all over the place.
beer

Re: 413/440 crank pilot/register dimensions [Re: Ray S] #3097314
11/26/22 04:32 PM
11/26/22 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Ray S
Originally Posted by moparx
Ray, my crank was used with a 727, but being an aftermarket crank, i figure it might be usable for both ? shruggy
beer

Probably, or at least one would hope, right?

John Vinson got back to me: (http://www.jvxracing.com/CustomerCars.htm)
Quote
Ray, Your drawing is for a 833 four speed strait stick/manual. Outside diameter ( aligns flex plate) is 2.120,

Inside diameter( torque converter hub alignment) is 1.820. depth is .675 on the outer edge, .683 ( 11/16) Middle section.
Both cranks were the same except some did not have the hole drilled for the strait stick/manual transmissions.

with even more slightly different dimensions...
Since I want the alignment plug to be within .001 fitment it looks like I'll wait to pull my trans, then clean up and measure.
Good luck on getting it that close wrench luck


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 413/440 crank pilot/register dimensions [Re: Cab_Burge] #3097351
11/26/22 07:45 PM
11/26/22 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Good luck on getting it that close wrench luck

It will be once I clean it and mic it.
I'm also now considering just mounting the adapter and using the crank spacer which is lathed precisely. It sticks out 3/4" from the crank though so I'll have to mod the part that indexes the dowel pins.
Additional benefit is knowing the eccentricity if any of the mounted spacer.
Alignment spec is <.005" and ring runout .0005 per inch diameter, so I'll be checking that too of course.

Re: 413/440 crank pilot/register dimensions [Re: Ray S] #3097362
11/26/22 08:14 PM
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One of the hardest part of doing this for me was getting the zero set on the micrometer properly to find out what part of the circle was offset from the center of the crank confused
Have fun, stick with it and let us know how far yours was out and which offset bushing you needed to use to get it the way you wanted it up wrench grin


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 413/440 crank pilot/register dimensions [Re: Cab_Burge] #3097533
11/27/22 01:15 PM
11/27/22 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
One of the hardest part of doing this for me was getting the zero set on the micrometer properly to find out what part of the circle was offset from the center of the crank confused
Have fun, stick with it and let us know how far yours was out and which offset bushing you needed to use to get it the way you wanted it up wrench grin

My design idea was to use a 1" nose on the crank side and another over the input shaft end, then use feeler gauges to check offset from the dowels via a 1/4" plate:

Bultmönster_vxl_mopar_bb 2psd.jpg
Re: 413/440 crank pilot/register dimensions [Re: Ray S] #3097580
11/27/22 04:08 PM
11/27/22 04:08 PM
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If your going to use a automatic tranny with a stock type or race converter I wouldn't worry too much about it being dead nuts on input shaft to crankshaft center line due to all the built clearances in the front pump and flexplace centering the converter to the crankshaft center.
If the converter will slide into the back of the crankshaft easily installed in the tranny with the tranny hooked up to the motor and the converter bolts install easily, I would use it the way it is :: up: twocents

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 11/27/22 04:13 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 413/440 crank pilot/register dimensions [Re: Cab_Burge] #3097604
11/27/22 06:59 PM
11/27/22 06:59 PM
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Ray S Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
If your going to use a automatic tranny with a stock type or race converter I wouldn't worry too much about it being dead nuts on input shaft to crankshaft center line due to all the built clearances in the front pump and flexplace centering the converter to the crankshaft center.
If the converter will slide into the back of the crankshaft easily installed in the tranny with the tranny hooked up to the motor and the converter bolts install easily, I would use it the way it is :: up: twocents


The ZF 8HP70 has a long input shaft (all the way to the rear drum) and zero wiggle. The adapter plate is a stiff 1/8" steel as well so less flex. JVX says .005 is OK, more requires the .007 offset pins.
I would guess that the A727 has more "flexibility".
We did have a 73 Jeepster Commando that cracked 2 flex plates because the OEM adapter (AMC 304 to TH400) was not true.

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