Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Direct injection motors, Late model techs ? #3095641
11/19/22 10:09 PM
11/19/22 10:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,440
Omaha Ne
T
TJP Offline OP
I Live Here
TJP  Offline OP
I Live Here
T

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,440
Omaha Ne
being stuck back in the 60-80's I just recently became aware of this wonderful technology and that I currently own two newer vehicles with this IMO "Dumb A-s idea".
So, what I'm reading is flushing the intake with an aerosol valve cleaner every oil change or 10K miles is required unless one wants to later pull the intake for an Ultra Sonic cleaning or other method at ~ 30K miles.
I hoping those in the trenches (dealerships) will respond with their thoughts / methods/ real life experiences and recommendations as to whether this is for real and what works and what doesn't.

Seems a bit strange as a non maintained vehicle would become an emissions nightmare and I would've thought the EPA would not have OK's the technology or that once the issues with it became known they would've done something about it
TIA shruggy beer

Last edited by TJP; 11/19/22 10:13 PM.
Re: Direct injection motors, Late model techs ? [Re: TJP] #3095653
11/19/22 11:25 PM
11/19/22 11:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,726
WI
Dcuda69 Offline
master
Dcuda69  Offline
master

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,726
WI
The EPA doesn't have to OK any tech. As long as a vehicle meets EPA and CAFE standards when sold it's good to go. If emissions exceed 1.5 times FTP standards OBDII will lite the MIL Then it's the owner(or manufacture if under warranty) issue. Ford has both port and direct injection on the Coyote....maybe other engines or manufactures do too?

Re: Direct injection motors, Late model techs ? [Re: TJP] #3095695
11/20/22 07:56 AM
11/20/22 07:56 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,075
USA
3
360view Offline
master
360view  Offline
master
3

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,075
USA
Most indefensible thing is manufacturers did not create clean out ports in the manifolds.
50,000 mile durability testing made it undeniable that that gunk was going to build up.

This is like EGR systems 40 years ago,
manufacturers knew deposits would build up but did not create ports or non-threaded piping with quick disassemble clamping.

I guess you can even say it is like fuel injection 50 years ago
where cleaners like Techron were invented and put on the market only after customers had headaches for at least 5 years.

Give the military limited credit that they at least make an effort to make field stripping and cleaning routine - perhaps it is because it is a life and death matter.
Yes, even they replace reliable M14s with nightmare early M16s

Re: Direct injection motors, Late model techs ? [Re: Dcuda69] #3095705
11/20/22 08:47 AM
11/20/22 08:47 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 795
Central Michigan
N
nuthinbutmopar Offline
super stock
nuthinbutmopar  Offline
super stock
N

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 795
Central Michigan
Originally Posted by Dcuda69
The EPA doesn't have to OK any tech. As long as a vehicle meets EPA and CAFE standards when sold it's good to go.


I have to dispute that comment. EPA does follow-up testing on in-use vehicles to make sure the emission controls are still working properly. When I ran a municipal fleet, they contacted us a couple of times to get vehicles to test. This quote is from a story about Cummins recalling 500k medium/heavy truck engines in 2018"

“Today’s recall is a great example of how government and industry work together to protect health and the environment." said EPA Office of Air and Radiation Assistant Administrator Bill Wehrum. “This is the way it’s supposed to work. Our follow-up testing seeks to make sure that pollution controls work throughout an engine’s useful life. And, if they don’t, then companies step up to set things right.”

This is how VW got caught cheating on diesel emissions.

Re: Direct injection motors, Late model techs ? [Re: TJP] #3095707
11/20/22 08:49 AM
11/20/22 08:49 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,414
Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy Offline
I Live Here
fourgearsavoy  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,414
Rittman Ohio
Being a dealer tech for almost 40 years now I have seen a lot of changes and most of them have been positive. The worst idea I have seen yet is the plastic intake manifolds that became popular in the late 90's. The intake NEVER gets hot enough to burn off any deposits that form near the ports. Most of the "induction services" offered by repair centers basically just clean your wallet out. With some intake designs it can also be dangerous because of large plenum areas where cleaners puddle and have been known to explode with the "keg" style manifolds.
We have a few direct injection engines in the Toyota brand but most of the fleet is still a basic low pressure port injection but that will probably change over to high pressure direct injection in the next few years.

Gus beer


64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
Re: Direct injection motors, Late model techs ? [Re: nuthinbutmopar] #3095728
11/20/22 10:05 AM
11/20/22 10:05 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,726
WI
Dcuda69 Offline
master
Dcuda69  Offline
master

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,726
WI
Originally Posted by nuthinbutmopar
Originally Posted by Dcuda69
The EPA doesn't have to OK any tech. As long as a vehicle meets EPA and CAFE standards when sold it's good to go.


I have to dispute that comment. EPA does follow-up testing on in-use vehicles to make sure the emission controls are still working properly. When I ran a municipal fleet, they contacted us a couple of times to get vehicles to test. This quote is from a story about Cummins recalling 500k medium/heavy truck engines in 2018"


At the fleet level they may do "follow up" but that doesn't mean they had to OK the "tech" before it was sold. The goal of OBDII was to insure emissions levels stay near the limits the vehicle had to meet when tested new.

Re: Direct injection motors, Late model techs ? [Re: Dcuda69] #3095733
11/20/22 10:15 AM
11/20/22 10:15 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 4,983
nowhere
S
Sniper Offline
master
Sniper  Offline
master
S

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 4,983
nowhere
CRC Intake Valve Cleaner does a pretty good job of it without much effort.

Re: Direct injection motors, Late model techs ? [Re: fourgearsavoy] #3095742
11/20/22 10:48 AM
11/20/22 10:48 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,379
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
Still wishing...
Twostick  Offline
Still wishing...

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,379
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Originally Posted by fourgearsavoy
Being a dealer tech for almost 40 years now I have seen a lot of changes and most of them have been positive. The worst idea I have seen yet is the plastic intake manifolds that became popular in the late 90's. The intake NEVER gets hot enough to burn off any deposits that form near the ports. Most of the "induction services" offered by repair centers basically just clean your wallet out. With some intake designs it can also be dangerous because of large plenum areas where cleaners puddle and have been known to explode with the "keg" style manifolds.
We have a few direct injection engines in the Toyota brand but most of the fleet is still a basic low pressure port injection but that will probably change over to high pressure direct injection in the next few years.

Gus beer


I just bought an 2010 LS460 Lexus this summer without doing all my due diligence because I'd had an LS400 in the past. Imagine my surprise that it has Direct Injection and no aftermarket support for AWD front suspension components... whiney

Any thoughts on things I should be aware of with the DI engine? I hadn't even considered intake deposits. I was more concerned about the high pressure injection pump.

Other than I have 2 rear front lower control arm bushings that are shot, I love the car.

Kevin


Last edited by Twostick; 11/20/22 10:50 AM.
Re: Direct injection motors, Late model techs ? [Re: Twostick] #3095762
11/20/22 12:15 PM
11/20/22 12:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,440
Omaha Ne
T
TJP Offline OP
I Live Here
TJP  Offline OP
I Live Here
T

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,440
Omaha Ne
Thanks to all that have repsonded.
This reminds me of leaded vs unleaded fuel back in the 70's most of which was BULL____ . While there was some validity to the claims of detrimental effects in older engines (valves sinking) the hype at the time made one think the older engines were going to self destruct in 5-10K miles WITHOUT buying and using the lead additive available everywhere. They made a lot of money on that scam.

In addition I haven't noticed any improvements in mileage or performance in the last 5-10 years with new vehicles. With the exception of one, a ford Escape with a turbo'ed 4 banger, fun to drive but 17 MPG eek.
I find it somewhat hard to believe that this technology would have survived requiring the "ADDED" service at every oil change without a solution being developed, especially with the amount of time it's been around

Please keep the responses coming as I am totally uniformed on the maintenance required and am not sure if what I've reading is fact or fiction, IE: marketing by the chemical companies. Just read an article this AM that said 75K miles before needing the intake off cleaning confused
beer

Re: Direct injection motors, Late model techs ? [Re: TJP] #3095766
11/20/22 12:18 PM
11/20/22 12:18 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 4,983
nowhere
S
Sniper Offline
master
Sniper  Offline
master
S

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 4,983
nowhere
Here's a video of a before and after cleaning of the intake valves

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn6NVHLy-Xc

Re: Direct injection motors, Late model techs ? [Re: Dcuda69] #3095812
11/20/22 02:23 PM
11/20/22 02:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 795
Central Michigan
N
nuthinbutmopar Offline
super stock
nuthinbutmopar  Offline
super stock
N

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 795
Central Michigan
Originally Posted by Dcuda69
Originally Posted by nuthinbutmopar
Originally Posted by Dcuda69
The EPA doesn't have to OK any tech. As long as a vehicle meets EPA and CAFE standards when sold it's good to go.


I have to dispute that comment. EPA does follow-up testing on in-use vehicles to make sure the emission controls are still working properly. When I ran a municipal fleet, they contacted us a couple of times to get vehicles to test. This quote is from a story about Cummins recalling 500k medium/heavy truck engines in 2018"


At the fleet level they may do "follow up" but that doesn't mean they had to OK the "tech" before it was sold. The goal of OBDII was to insure emissions levels stay near the limits the vehicle had to meet when tested new.


I agree that there's no "approval" by the EPA. The second sentence is incorrect. From the EPA website at: Link

"Vehicle, engine, and equipment manufacturers are required to design and build their vehicles, engines, and equipment to meet emission standards for the useful life of the vehicle, engine or equipment specified by law."

They define useful life as 7-8 years and 100-150k miles.

Re: Direct injection motors, Late model techs ? [Re: Twostick] #3095857
11/20/22 06:12 PM
11/20/22 06:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,414
Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy Offline
I Live Here
fourgearsavoy  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,414
Rittman Ohio
Originally Posted by Twostick
Originally Posted by fourgearsavoy
Being a dealer tech for almost 40 years now I have seen a lot of changes and most of them have been positive. The worst idea I have seen yet is the plastic intake manifolds that became popular in the late 90's. The intake NEVER gets hot enough to burn off any deposits that form near the ports. Most of the "induction services" offered by repair centers basically just clean your wallet out. With some intake designs it can also be dangerous because of large plenum areas where cleaners puddle and have been known to explode with the "keg" style manifolds.
We have a few direct injection engines in the Toyota brand but most of the fleet is still a basic low pressure port injection but that will probably change over to high pressure direct injection in the next few years.

Gus beer


I just bought an 2010 LS460 Lexus this summer without doing all my due diligence because I'd had an LS400 in the past. Imagine my surprise that it has Direct Injection and no aftermarket support for AWD front suspension components... whiney

Any thoughts on things I should be aware of with the DI engine? I hadn't even considered intake deposits. I was more concerned about the high pressure injection pump.

Other than I have 2 rear front lower control arm bushings that are shot, I love the car.

Kevin


Kevin we haven't had any issues with the DI engines or fuel pumps for that matter. If you need any parts I'll get you a good deal on anything I can get with a Toyota P/N on it.
I have a new number I'll send you a text so you trap it.

Gus beer


64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
Re: Direct injection motors, Late model techs ? [Re: nuthinbutmopar] #3095894
11/20/22 09:20 PM
11/20/22 09:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,440
Omaha Ne
T
TJP Offline OP
I Live Here
TJP  Offline OP
I Live Here
T

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,440
Omaha Ne
Originally Posted by nuthinbutmopar
Originally Posted by Dcuda69
Originally Posted by nuthinbutmopar
Originally Posted by Dcuda69
The EPA doesn't have to OK any tech. As long as a vehicle meets EPA and CAFE standards when sold it's good to go.


I have to dispute that comment. EPA does follow-up testing on in-use vehicles to make sure the emission controls are still working properly. When I ran a municipal fleet, they contacted us a couple of times to get vehicles to test. This quote is from a story about Cummins recalling 500k medium/heavy truck engines in 2018"


At the fleet level they may do "follow up" but that doesn't mean they had to OK the "tech" before it was sold. The goal of OBDII was to insure emissions levels stay near the limits the vehicle had to meet when tested new.


I agree that there's no "approval" by the EPA. The second sentence is incorrect. From the EPA website at: Link

"Vehicle, engine, and equipment manufacturers are required to design and build their vehicles, engines, and equipment to meet emission standards for the useful life of the vehicle, engine or equipment specified by law."

They define useful life as 7-8 years and 100-150k miles.


Back on subject tsk
Referring to the bolded statement above, I suppose the MFR's can claim the service is "required" maintenance. but we all know that as a vehicle ages the ' required maintenance is likely to drop off as well. Which would make me think it would be a bigger problem than is being addressed, or is what I'm reading blowing things out of proportion to sell the service, chemicals etc.

My question is still, how big of an issue is this and how often should this be done?
Do the Aerosols down the intake at every oil change actually do any good or is every 2nd 3rd or 4th change adequate, or is it snake oil as well?
I would think with the number of years this technology has been out there they would have devised a solution and mandated implementation as well as retrofitting.
I have read some MFR's are shooting a small amount of gas into the intake to "wash" the valves while adjusting the injectors to compensate for it
Repeating the following
Please keep the responses coming as I am totally uniformed on the maintenance required and am not sure if what I've reading is fact or fiction, IE: marketing by the chemical companies. I just read an article this AM that said 75K miles before needing the intake off cleaning. That does seem a bit more feasible
shruggy confused beer







Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1