Direct injection motors, Late model techs ?
#3095641
11/19/22 11:09 PM
11/19/22 11:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,197 Omaha Ne
TJP
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being stuck back in the 60-80's I just recently became aware of this wonderful technology and that I currently own two newer vehicles with this IMO "Dumb A-s idea". So, what I'm reading is flushing the intake with an aerosol valve cleaner every oil change or 10K miles is required unless one wants to later pull the intake for an Ultra Sonic cleaning or other method at ~ 30K miles. I hoping those in the trenches (dealerships) will respond with their thoughts / methods/ real life experiences and recommendations as to whether this is for real and what works and what doesn't. Seems a bit strange as a non maintained vehicle would become an emissions nightmare and I would've thought the EPA would not have OK's the technology or that once the issues with it became known they would've done something about it TIA
Last edited by TJP; 11/19/22 11:13 PM.
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Re: Direct injection motors, Late model techs ?
[Re: Dcuda69]
#3095705
11/20/22 09:47 AM
11/20/22 09:47 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 937 Central Michigan
nuthinbutmopar
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super stock
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Central Michigan
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The EPA doesn't have to OK any tech. As long as a vehicle meets EPA and CAFE standards when sold it's good to go. I have to dispute that comment. EPA does follow-up testing on in-use vehicles to make sure the emission controls are still working properly. When I ran a municipal fleet, they contacted us a couple of times to get vehicles to test. This quote is from a story about Cummins recalling 500k medium/heavy truck engines in 2018" “Today’s recall is a great example of how government and industry work together to protect health and the environment." said EPA Office of Air and Radiation Assistant Administrator Bill Wehrum. “This is the way it’s supposed to work. Our follow-up testing seeks to make sure that pollution controls work throughout an engine’s useful life. And, if they don’t, then companies step up to set things right.”This is how VW got caught cheating on diesel emissions.
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Re: Direct injection motors, Late model techs ?
[Re: TJP]
#3095707
11/20/22 09:49 AM
11/20/22 09:49 AM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,550 Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
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Being a dealer tech for almost 40 years now I have seen a lot of changes and most of them have been positive. The worst idea I have seen yet is the plastic intake manifolds that became popular in the late 90's. The intake NEVER gets hot enough to burn off any deposits that form near the ports. Most of the "induction services" offered by repair centers basically just clean your wallet out. With some intake designs it can also be dangerous because of large plenum areas where cleaners puddle and have been known to explode with the "keg" style manifolds. We have a few direct injection engines in the Toyota brand but most of the fleet is still a basic low pressure port injection but that will probably change over to high pressure direct injection in the next few years. Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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Re: Direct injection motors, Late model techs ?
[Re: nuthinbutmopar]
#3095728
11/20/22 11:05 AM
11/20/22 11:05 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,935 WI
Dcuda69
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WI
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The EPA doesn't have to OK any tech. As long as a vehicle meets EPA and CAFE standards when sold it's good to go. I have to dispute that comment. EPA does follow-up testing on in-use vehicles to make sure the emission controls are still working properly. When I ran a municipal fleet, they contacted us a couple of times to get vehicles to test. This quote is from a story about Cummins recalling 500k medium/heavy truck engines in 2018" At the fleet level they may do "follow up" but that doesn't mean they had to OK the "tech" before it was sold. The goal of OBDII was to insure emissions levels stay near the limits the vehicle had to meet when tested new.
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Re: Direct injection motors, Late model techs ?
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#3095742
11/20/22 11:48 AM
11/20/22 11:48 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,545 Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick
Still wishing...
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Still wishing...
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,545
Downtown Roebuck Ont
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Being a dealer tech for almost 40 years now I have seen a lot of changes and most of them have been positive. The worst idea I have seen yet is the plastic intake manifolds that became popular in the late 90's. The intake NEVER gets hot enough to burn off any deposits that form near the ports. Most of the "induction services" offered by repair centers basically just clean your wallet out. With some intake designs it can also be dangerous because of large plenum areas where cleaners puddle and have been known to explode with the "keg" style manifolds. We have a few direct injection engines in the Toyota brand but most of the fleet is still a basic low pressure port injection but that will probably change over to high pressure direct injection in the next few years. Gus I just bought an 2010 LS460 Lexus this summer without doing all my due diligence because I'd had an LS400 in the past. Imagine my surprise that it has Direct Injection and no aftermarket support for AWD front suspension components... Any thoughts on things I should be aware of with the DI engine? I hadn't even considered intake deposits. I was more concerned about the high pressure injection pump. Other than I have 2 rear front lower control arm bushings that are shot, I love the car. Kevin
Last edited by Twostick; 11/20/22 11:50 AM.
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Re: Direct injection motors, Late model techs ?
[Re: Twostick]
#3095762
11/20/22 01:15 PM
11/20/22 01:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,197 Omaha Ne
TJP
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Thanks to all that have repsonded. This reminds me of leaded vs unleaded fuel back in the 70's most of which was BULL____ . While there was some validity to the claims of detrimental effects in older engines (valves sinking) the hype at the time made one think the older engines were going to self destruct in 5-10K miles WITHOUT buying and using the lead additive available everywhere. They made a lot of money on that scam. In addition I haven't noticed any improvements in mileage or performance in the last 5-10 years with new vehicles. With the exception of one, a ford Escape with a turbo'ed 4 banger, fun to drive but 17 MPG . I find it somewhat hard to believe that this technology would have survived requiring the "ADDED" service at every oil change without a solution being developed, especially with the amount of time it's been around Please keep the responses coming as I am totally uniformed on the maintenance required and am not sure if what I've reading is fact or fiction, IE: marketing by the chemical companies. Just read an article this AM that said 75K miles before needing the intake off cleaning
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Re: Direct injection motors, Late model techs ?
[Re: Dcuda69]
#3095812
11/20/22 03:23 PM
11/20/22 03:23 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 937 Central Michigan
nuthinbutmopar
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 937
Central Michigan
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The EPA doesn't have to OK any tech. As long as a vehicle meets EPA and CAFE standards when sold it's good to go. I have to dispute that comment. EPA does follow-up testing on in-use vehicles to make sure the emission controls are still working properly. When I ran a municipal fleet, they contacted us a couple of times to get vehicles to test. This quote is from a story about Cummins recalling 500k medium/heavy truck engines in 2018" At the fleet level they may do "follow up" but that doesn't mean they had to OK the "tech" before it was sold. The goal of OBDII was to insure emissions levels stay near the limits the vehicle had to meet when tested new. I agree that there's no "approval" by the EPA. The second sentence is incorrect. From the EPA website at: Link"Vehicle, engine, and equipment manufacturers are required to design and build their vehicles, engines, and equipment to meet emission standards for the useful life of the vehicle, engine or equipment specified by law." They define useful life as 7-8 years and 100-150k miles.
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Re: Direct injection motors, Late model techs ?
[Re: Twostick]
#3095857
11/20/22 07:12 PM
11/20/22 07:12 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,550 Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,550
Rittman Ohio
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Being a dealer tech for almost 40 years now I have seen a lot of changes and most of them have been positive. The worst idea I have seen yet is the plastic intake manifolds that became popular in the late 90's. The intake NEVER gets hot enough to burn off any deposits that form near the ports. Most of the "induction services" offered by repair centers basically just clean your wallet out. With some intake designs it can also be dangerous because of large plenum areas where cleaners puddle and have been known to explode with the "keg" style manifolds. We have a few direct injection engines in the Toyota brand but most of the fleet is still a basic low pressure port injection but that will probably change over to high pressure direct injection in the next few years. Gus I just bought an 2010 LS460 Lexus this summer without doing all my due diligence because I'd had an LS400 in the past. Imagine my surprise that it has Direct Injection and no aftermarket support for AWD front suspension components... Any thoughts on things I should be aware of with the DI engine? I hadn't even considered intake deposits. I was more concerned about the high pressure injection pump. Other than I have 2 rear front lower control arm bushings that are shot, I love the car. Kevin Kevin we haven't had any issues with the DI engines or fuel pumps for that matter. If you need any parts I'll get you a good deal on anything I can get with a Toyota P/N on it. I have a new number I'll send you a text so you trap it. Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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Re: Direct injection motors, Late model techs ?
[Re: nuthinbutmopar]
#3095894
11/20/22 10:20 PM
11/20/22 10:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,197 Omaha Ne
TJP
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,197
Omaha Ne
|
The EPA doesn't have to OK any tech. As long as a vehicle meets EPA and CAFE standards when sold it's good to go. I have to dispute that comment. EPA does follow-up testing on in-use vehicles to make sure the emission controls are still working properly. When I ran a municipal fleet, they contacted us a couple of times to get vehicles to test. This quote is from a story about Cummins recalling 500k medium/heavy truck engines in 2018" At the fleet level they may do "follow up" but that doesn't mean they had to OK the "tech" before it was sold. The goal of OBDII was to insure emissions levels stay near the limits the vehicle had to meet when tested new. I agree that there's no "approval" by the EPA. The second sentence is incorrect. From the EPA website at: Link"Vehicle, engine, and equipment manufacturers are required to design and build their vehicles, engines, and equipment to meet emission standards for the useful life of the vehicle, engine or equipment specified by law."
They define useful life as 7-8 years and 100-150k miles. Back on subject Referring to the bolded statement above, I suppose the MFR's can claim the service is "required" maintenance. but we all know that as a vehicle ages the ' required maintenance is likely to drop off as well. Which would make me think it would be a bigger problem than is being addressed, or is what I'm reading blowing things out of proportion to sell the service, chemicals etc. My question is still, how big of an issue is this and how often should this be done? Do the Aerosols down the intake at every oil change actually do any good or is every 2nd 3rd or 4th change adequate, or is it snake oil as well? I would think with the number of years this technology has been out there they would have devised a solution and mandated implementation as well as retrofitting. I have read some MFR's are shooting a small amount of gas into the intake to "wash" the valves while adjusting the injectors to compensate for it Repeating the followingPlease keep the responses coming as I am totally uniformed on the maintenance required and am not sure if what I've reading is fact or fiction, IE: marketing by the chemical companies. I just read an article this AM that said 75K miles before needing the intake off cleaning. That does seem a bit more feasible
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