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Re: Do big(ger) strokes exacerbate the stock block problems? [Re: TRENDZ] #3094497
11/15/22 08:49 PM
11/15/22 08:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,812
Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl Online content
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Plymouth, MI
Originally Posted by TRENDZ

That would be me. People taking it farther than I have like that orange procharged challenger with a 383, or the totally home built avenger with a turbo.

I preached the importance of ignition timing and benefits of distributorless programmable ignition for years on this board to be ridiculed and doubted by the vast majority of users on this board.
Now 15 years later, it has become acceptable here to embrace technology that has been available for years.
It was explained to me years ago by Kenny D that it’s real easy to keep an engine alive if you time it to keep the crank rolling forward instead of pushing it down. This is an easy rule to follow with a turbocharged engine. There is no need to maximize timing to make power. All you need to do is turn up the boost.
The weak link in my situation (400block/ 3.90 stroke 7000-7200 rpm shift) was the cylinder bores. They were shaped like beer kegs after years of making more power than I was told was possible. Still made good reliable power, but it ate rings every season.


I also remember you made some super trick tool steel straps for your main caps. They were a work of art!

Completely agree on the timing aspect. Monte used to preach the same thing regarding nitrous tunes, make sure the timing is safe before anything else. I'm not a fan of locked out distributors either, but like multiple people have mentioned it's hard to get a perfect curve with just advance weights. EFI makes it so, so much easier.

I've worked on OEM stuff where we measure cylinder pressure in real time, and the first time I did it I was shocked at how sensitive an engine can be to timing. +/- 2 degrees can be a loss of 20% of torque in either direction, and on the high end it's only beating the bottom end up.


'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
Re: Do big(ger) strokes exacerbate the stock block problems? [Re: Brad_Haak] #3094499
11/15/22 08:50 PM
11/15/22 08:50 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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The stock RB blocks, all of the passenger car production blocks, have thinner main webbing than any of the stock 400 blocks came with work
I've seen 5 RB blocks with cracks in the main webbing between #1 and #3 cylinders, no cracks in any 400 block so far luck
If your going to make a Mopar BB race motor that makes north of 750 HP on gasoline buy a new race block to start with twocents


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Do big(ger) strokes exacerbate the stock block problems? [Re: Cab_Burge] #3094516
11/15/22 09:22 PM
11/15/22 09:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 19,645
PA.
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
The stock RB blocks, all of the passenger car production blocks, have thinner main webbing than any of the stock 400 blocks came with work
I've seen 5 RB blocks with cracks in the main webbing between #1 and #3 cylinders, no cracks in any 400 block so far luck
If your going to make a Mopar BB race motor that makes north of 750 HP on gasoline buy a new race block to start with twocents




Lots of broken 400 blocks in this part of the country Cab but with so many mopar racers these guys know how to make horsepower. We all moved to aftermarket blocks after trying everything


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: Do big(ger) strokes exacerbate the stock block problems? [Re: Brad_Haak] #3094523
11/15/22 09:42 PM
11/15/22 09:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,062
New York
polyspheric Offline
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If you can fabricate, automatic shifts should also trigger a spark retard to momentarily reduce power.
Advantages:
Less clutch and band wear
Better traction during the shift
Car does not dart as much

I "invented" this years ago, only to discover that my factory-turbocharged Toyota 2JZ Supra engine already has it!


Boffin Emeritus
Re: Do big(ger) strokes exacerbate the stock block problems? [Re: polyspheric] #3094546
11/15/22 11:54 PM
11/15/22 11:54 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 539
Lake Villa Il
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Originally Posted by polyspheric


I "invented" this years ago, only to discover that my factory-turbocharged Toyota 2JZ Supra engine already has it!


I didn't know that was implemented on the 2JZ.

The car I -noticed- it the most on was Lexus GS300. Absolutely seamless shifts.


69 Charger. 438ci Gen2 hemi. Flex fuel. Holley HP efi. 595rwhp 475rwtq.
Re: Do big(ger) strokes exacerbate the stock block problems? [Re: Brad_Haak] #3094551
11/16/22 12:31 AM
11/16/22 12:31 AM
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Missouri
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jwb123 Offline
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Missouri
Originally Posted by Brad_Haak
jwb123 - What are the bore / stroke / rod length for each combination? I'll take a s.w.a.g. the 500 was 4.380", 4.15" and 6.76"...


540 was 4.5 bore 4.25 stroke 7.1 inch rod 1.67 rod stroke ratio
500 was 4.38 bore 4.150 stroke 6.760 rod 1.63 rod stroke ratio
from my memory.

Re: Do big(ger) strokes exacerbate the stock block problems? [Re: jwb123] #3094562
11/16/22 02:51 AM
11/16/22 02:51 AM
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Posts: 2,401
Sydney,Australia
tex013 Offline
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i got 20 months or so out of my 440/505 with 7.1 rods. Daily driver , interstate and raced a lot. I season foot brake 1 season trans brake . My machinest said he knew it would split but that was a little earlier than he expected .
I wont go stock block stroker again . I lucked out finding a new in box World iron block . The extea 90lbs hmmm
Tex


New best ET 10.259@129.65 .
New best MPH 130.32
Finally fitted a solid cam,
stepped it up a bit more
3690lbs through the mufflers
New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm
Power by Tex's Automotive
Re: Do big(ger) strokes exacerbate the stock block problems? [Re: Cab_Burge] #3094591
11/16/22 09:11 AM
11/16/22 09:11 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,288
PA
moparacer Offline
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
The stock RB blocks, all of the passenger car production blocks, have thinner main webbing than any of the stock 400 blocks came with work
I've seen 5 RB blocks with cracks in the main webbing between #1 and #3 cylinders, no cracks in any 400 block so far luck
If your going to make a Mopar BB race motor that makes north of 750 HP on gasoline buy a new race block to start with twocents


I have a 77 400 Block that is pushing 850 in good air with a tall fill, billet main caps and ARP studs. No girdle! eek She has a ton of passes on her the last few years too....Just pulled the pan the other day to have a look see and all is well. luck

I did crack a #8 cylinder last year and had to sleeve it..


67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119
68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152
414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
Re: Do big(ger) strokes exacerbate the stock block problems? [Re: Brad_Haak] #3094597
11/16/22 09:35 AM
11/16/22 09:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,396
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline
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S.E. Michigan
Originally Posted by Brad_Haak
Decided to check out the price of aftermarket blocks as a tangent to this topic: https://billmitchellproducts.com/product-category/engine-blocks/mopar-big-block-2/

OK, anybody else surprised that the Mopar / Callies cast iron blocks are $400 more than the BMP aluminum blocks? And that's for about 170 lbs more weight, too.


Not super suprised, whatever the licensing fee Callies is paying Chrysler is probably pretty substantial given the use
Of a million + dollar tool that most likely hasn’t amortized yet because the volumes have been so low and Chrysler
Gave up managing the program for so many years. Not to mention the profit margins needed to keep the program running.

And not knowing the details of the deal between the two entities, the licensing fee could even be volume based,
Up for renegotiation on a regular basis, or some such.

Wouldn’t be shocked if the licensing fee was $400 per block or more.

Glad I got in on the ground floor.


Rich H.





Re: Do big(ger) strokes exacerbate the stock block problems? [Re: ZIPPY] #3094599
11/16/22 09:40 AM
11/16/22 09:40 AM
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CT
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If and when I decide I want and have the money to spend on an aftermarket block i’m going Hemi. It surprises me that so many people buy wedge blocks, but I know, they already have a bunch of wedge parts.


Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
Re: Do big(ger) strokes exacerbate the stock block problems? [Re: tex013] #3094601
11/16/22 09:42 AM
11/16/22 09:42 AM
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Wichita
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Originally Posted by tex013
i got 20 months or so out of my 440/505 with 7.1 rods. Daily driver , interstate and raced a lot. I season foot brake 1 season trans brake . My machinest said he knew it would split but that was a little earlier than he expected .
I wont go stock block stroker again . I lucked out finding a new in box World iron block . The extea 90lbs hmmm
Tex


How much power were you pushing through the 505?


'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.

Re: Do big(ger) strokes exacerbate the stock block problems? [Re: jwb123] #3094607
11/16/22 10:08 AM
11/16/22 10:08 AM
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Posts: 810
Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak Offline OP
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Originally Posted by jwb123
Originally Posted by Brad_Haak
jwb123 - What are the bore / stroke / rod length for each combination? I'll take a s.w.a.g. the 500 was 4.380", 4.15" and 6.76"...


540 was 4.5 bore 4.25 stroke 7.1 inch rod 1.67 rod stroke ratio
500 was 4.38 bore 4.150 stroke 6.760 rod 1.63 rod stroke ratio
from my memory.

Like was mentioned above, the longer stroke means your average piston speed increased regardless of rod ratio. Without plotting out the complete curves for both combinations, I would only be guessing at how much min / max acceleration rates differed between them... wouldn't expect it would be that much, though.


2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320 (2022)
100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft)
wheels, tires, air filter: 1.714, 11.833 at 115.80 (DA 310 ft)

1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip (2008)
pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
Re: Do big(ger) strokes exacerbate the stock block problems? [Re: GTX MATT] #3094650
11/16/22 12:21 PM
11/16/22 12:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,791
Las Vegas
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Originally Posted by GTX MATT
If and when I decide I want and have the money to spend on an aftermarket block i’m going Hemi. It surprises me that so many people buy wedge blocks, but I know, they already have a bunch of wedge parts.


Well if you want to make reliable NA power and not dump money into a bandaid what choice do you have. Besides can make more power with a wedge anyway stirthepot


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Do big(ger) strokes exacerbate the stock block problems? [Re: GTX MATT] #3094735
11/16/22 03:29 PM
11/16/22 03:29 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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I've been able to make more HP per C.I.N/A with wedge motors with good heads, B1 originals well prepared, than any N/A street hemi motor I've built, maybe I'm stupid when it comes to making a hemi Humm shruggy


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Do big(ger) strokes exacerbate the stock block problems? [Re: Cab_Burge] #3094750
11/16/22 04:08 PM
11/16/22 04:08 PM
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Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
I've been able to make more HP per C.I.N/A with wedge motors with good heads, B1 originals well prepared, than any N/A street hemi motor I've built, maybe I'm stupid when it comes to making a hemi Humm shruggy


Your not.....But since I have not met you personally, that might not hold a lot of weight.

But a Hemi, unlike the wedge, isn't an engine you just put a big cube short block under it, and port the heads and it works....They have some hidden secrets no one will tell you about and you end up solving them yourself if you can...I can't tell you how many times builders have said, I have never seen that issue before...I am here to tell you, welcome to Hemi land where copying what other people have done, doesn't work. These engines are just different. And like you, I have been faster with my stock block wedge engines than I have with this big cube Hemiroid. Now the smaller 484 Hemi sized motors I have had great luck with....Not the big ones.


'70 Cuda,...605 Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: Do big(ger) strokes exacerbate the stock block problems? [Re: GY3] #3094752
11/16/22 04:16 PM
11/16/22 04:16 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,401
Sydney,Australia
tex013 Offline
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How much power were you pushing through the 505? [/quote]

I reckon on about 625/650hp . So not way up there . This was run always on pump 98 premium . It was dynoed to get a good read on tune etc . Split from main up into water , #2 ? Sometimes its just luck of the draw . It did have billet mains/studs fitted , not that made any difference , no sign of movement when i pulled it apart .

Tex

20180822_131834.jpg
Last edited by tex013; 11/16/22 04:25 PM.

New best ET 10.259@129.65 .
New best MPH 130.32
Finally fitted a solid cam,
stepped it up a bit more
3690lbs through the mufflers
New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm
Power by Tex's Automotive
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