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Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ? #3091387
11/03/22 12:46 PM
11/03/22 12:46 PM
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Washington
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hemienvy Offline OP
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I was considering heat treating some gears that I currently do not know the metallurgy of.

If a gear is already "heat treated", is there a penalty or benefit from heat treating again, just to be sure ?
Is there a benefit to Cryo treatment for tranny gears ?
Can you do both, Cryo and heat treat, in that order ?

Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ? [Re: hemienvy] #3091475
11/03/22 07:22 PM
11/03/22 07:22 PM
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Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy Offline
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I had the gears in my Richmond cryo treated with the face-plate mods and they are still on one piece. Liberty's done the work up It only took about 10 months luck

Gus beer


64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ? [Re: hemienvy] #3091481
11/03/22 08:17 PM
11/03/22 08:17 PM
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Melbourne , Australia
LA360 Offline
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Originally Posted by hemienvy
I was considering heat treating some gears that I currently do not know the metallurgy of.

If a gear is already "heat treated", is there a penalty or benefit from heat treating again, just to be sure ?
Is there a benefit to Cryo treatment for tranny gears ?
Can you do both, Cryo and heat treat, in that order ?


I'd look at cryo treating. There would be no benefit to heat treating the gears again. Plus you've no idea what the exact metal composition is, so the heat treatment company would not know the correct heat treatment procedure.


Alan Jones
Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ? [Re: hemienvy] #3091490
11/03/22 09:08 PM
11/03/22 09:08 PM
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Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak Offline
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My suggestion is to do some research on both and see how they differ and what the effect is on the particular materials involved.

When I was looking into the effect of cryogenic-treating aluminum rocker arms, I found a couple of research papers on the subject to see how it changed the metallurgy, tensile strength, etc.


2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320 (2022)
100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft)
wheels, tires, air filter: 1.714, 11.833 at 115.80 (DA 310 ft)

1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip (2008)
pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ? [Re: hemienvy] #3091508
11/03/22 10:19 PM
11/03/22 10:19 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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I think all the Pro Gear ring and pinions are softer than stock OEM gears are so they will flex a little instead of cracking. work scope
I would do all the research I could before deciding either way work scopetwocents
Good luck up

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 11/03/22 10:21 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ? [Re: fourgearsavoy] #3091564
11/04/22 08:59 AM
11/04/22 08:59 AM
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JohnRR Offline
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Add me to the Cryo treatment , I just had to buy a new cluster gear for a hemi 4 speed I had because 3rd gear was showing cracks , now I have a few others to have magnafluxed because I do not know the history of these trans' I have bought over the years .


running up my post count some more .
Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ? [Re: JohnRR] #3091572
11/04/22 09:58 AM
11/04/22 09:58 AM
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North Dakota
6PakBee Offline
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Other than Liberty anyone got a recommendation for a firm to do this to transmission gearing?


"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ? [Re: 6PakBee] #3091618
11/04/22 01:15 PM
11/04/22 01:15 PM
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Morrow, OH
markz528 Offline
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I cryoed a 727 output shaft before Rick Allison sold me an aftermarket one. My metallurgist said I wasted my money because of the material. I forget what the material is but once I told her she said cryo has no effect on that material type.


67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph
67 Coronet 500 (street car) 14.82 @ 94 mph
69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ? [Re: markz528] #3091715
11/04/22 08:43 PM
11/04/22 08:43 PM
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Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak Offline
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Originally Posted by markz528
I cryoed a 727 output shaft before Rick Allison sold me an aftermarket one. My metallurgist said I wasted my money because of the material. I forget what the material is but once I told her she said cryo has no effect on that material type.

What material? I didn't think cryo did anything to aluminum, but turned out I was wrong.


2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320 (2022)
100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft)
wheels, tires, air filter: 1.714, 11.833 at 115.80 (DA 310 ft)

1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip (2008)
pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ? [Re: Brad_Haak] #3091725
11/04/22 09:15 PM
11/04/22 09:15 PM
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Morrow, OH
markz528 Offline
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Originally Posted by Brad_Haak
Originally Posted by markz528
I cryoed a 727 output shaft before Rick Allison sold me an aftermarket one. My metallurgist said I wasted my money because of the material. I forget what the material is but once I told her she said cryo has no effect on that material type.

What material? I didn't think cryo did anything to aluminum, but turned out I was wrong.


Has to do with carbon content. For life of me I can’t remember if the output shaft is high or low carbon content steel. Cryo works on one of them but has almost or no effect on the other.


67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph
67 Coronet 500 (street car) 14.82 @ 94 mph
69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ? [Re: Brad_Haak] #3091730
11/04/22 09:19 PM
11/04/22 09:19 PM
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Melbourne , Australia
LA360 Offline
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An aftermarket output shaft would most likely be 300M, 4340 or something similar

Transmission gears will be 8620, EN36A, 9310 or something in that range. Something that is case hardened I would imagine, where as a shaft would be through hardened. I'll have to ask one of the material scientists at work about why cryogenic treatment might not work on some materials.


Alan Jones
Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ? [Re: LA360] #3091748
11/04/22 10:49 PM
11/04/22 10:49 PM
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Southern Alberta
Uberpube Offline
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Neither, get the parts WPC treated.

Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ? [Re: Uberpube] #3091803
11/05/22 09:43 AM
11/05/22 09:43 AM
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North Dakota
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Originally Posted by Uberpube
Neither, get the parts WPC treated.


I looked on a few sites and WPC seems to be in the family of shot peening, a surface treatment. Heat treatment and cryogenic are internal treatments. I think they all have their place depending on what you are trying to achieve.


"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ? [Re: 6PakBee] #3091955
11/06/22 09:54 AM
11/06/22 09:54 AM
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Southern Alberta
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Most production parts are already heat treated so the only thing you can really do to them is external treatments. The WPC process is a lot finer than than standard shotpeening.
A lot of the import cars never had aftermarket support for transmission parts or ring and pinions so it WPC became the trick to making stock parts live in performance applications. I use it a lot on my rotary engine builds.

Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ? [Re: Uberpube] #3093128
11/10/22 12:40 PM
11/10/22 12:40 PM
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JohnRR Offline
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Originally Posted by Uberpube
Neither, get the parts WPC treated.


Where do you get that done ?

The output shaft in the 4WD OD unit of the 47RE behind my 500HP Cummins was cryo treated because at the time billet wasn't readily available AND about 800bucks. I twisted off a factory piece power braking it against the convertor but I was too gunshy to try it again after fixing, but I never broke another with all the racing I was doing at the time.


running up my post count some more .
Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ? [Re: Uberpube] #3093254
11/10/22 08:59 PM
11/10/22 08:59 PM
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Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy Offline
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Originally Posted by Uberpube
Most production parts are already heat treated so the only thing you can really do to them is external treatments. The WPC process is a lot finer than than standard shotpeening.
A lot of the import cars never had aftermarket support for transmission parts or ring and pinions so it WPC became the trick to making stock parts live in performance applications. I use it a lot on my rotary engine builds.


I've been looking at some Youtube videos about this WPC coating and it looks like it has many applications in our drivetrains. I think oil pump rotors could really be a good application for this treatment. Transmission gears and rear gears would be a no brainer for this type of surface prep. I'm going to look into local outfits that may provide this service.
Thanks for the information up

Gus beer


64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ? [Re: fourgearsavoy] #3093462
11/11/22 01:50 PM
11/11/22 01:50 PM
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north of coder
moparx Offline
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if you go this rout Gus, please let us know how this works out.
beer

Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ? [Re: fourgearsavoy] #3093463
11/11/22 01:50 PM
11/11/22 01:50 PM
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Southern Alberta
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Wpc is originally from Japan, but they have an office in California. I haven't used the California service, when I buy new Oem parts in Japan from a friend, he just gets the parts shipped directly to WPC from the OEM there and they process then ship to him.
I think if I change the flat tapped in my other 440 truck, I'm going to get the cam and lifters WPC'd along with the rest of the valvetrain. I've seen entire engines and transmissions that have been WPC'd.

Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ? [Re: Uberpube] #3093471
11/11/22 02:06 PM
11/11/22 02:06 PM
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north of coder
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how far would the WPC coating go in preventing a solid flat tappet cam from loosing a lobe during break in ?
beer







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