Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ?
[Re: hemienvy]
#3091475
11/03/22 07:22 PM
11/03/22 07:22 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,552 Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
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I had the gears in my Richmond cryo treated with the face-plate mods and they are still on one piece. Liberty's done the work It only took about 10 months Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ?
[Re: hemienvy]
#3091481
11/03/22 08:17 PM
11/03/22 08:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,136 Melbourne , Australia
LA360
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I was considering heat treating some gears that I currently do not know the metallurgy of.
If a gear is already "heat treated", is there a penalty or benefit from heat treating again, just to be sure ? Is there a benefit to Cryo treatment for tranny gears ? Can you do both, Cryo and heat treat, in that order ? I'd look at cryo treating. There would be no benefit to heat treating the gears again. Plus you've no idea what the exact metal composition is, so the heat treatment company would not know the correct heat treatment procedure.
Alan Jones
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Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ?
[Re: hemienvy]
#3091490
11/03/22 09:08 PM
11/03/22 09:08 PM
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Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,118 Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak
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My suggestion is to do some research on both and see how they differ and what the effect is on the particular materials involved.
When I was looking into the effect of cryogenic-treating aluminum rocker arms, I found a couple of research papers on the subject to see how it changed the metallurgy, tensile strength, etc.
2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320 100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft) weight reduction, wheels, tires, Hellcat air box: 1.661, 11.686 at 115.97 (DA 710 ft)
1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip [2008] pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
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Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ?
[Re: hemienvy]
#3091508
11/03/22 10:19 PM
11/03/22 10:19 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,123 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Last edited by Cab_Burge; 11/03/22 10:21 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ?
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#3091564
11/04/22 08:59 AM
11/04/22 08:59 AM
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JohnRR
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Add me to the Cryo treatment , I just had to buy a new cluster gear for a hemi 4 speed I had because 3rd gear was showing cracks , now I have a few others to have magnafluxed because I do not know the history of these trans' I have bought over the years .
running up my post count some more .
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Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ?
[Re: JohnRR]
#3091572
11/04/22 09:58 AM
11/04/22 09:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,703 North Dakota
6PakBee
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Other than Liberty anyone got a recommendation for a firm to do this to transmission gearing?
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ?
[Re: 6PakBee]
#3091618
11/04/22 01:15 PM
11/04/22 01:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,270 Morrow, OH
markz528
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Morrow, OH
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I cryoed a 727 output shaft before Rick Allison sold me an aftermarket one. My metallurgist said I wasted my money because of the material. I forget what the material is but once I told her she said cryo has no effect on that material type.
67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph 67 Coronet 500 (street car) 14.82 @ 94 mph 69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
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Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ?
[Re: markz528]
#3091715
11/04/22 08:43 PM
11/04/22 08:43 PM
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Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,118 Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak
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I cryoed a 727 output shaft before Rick Allison sold me an aftermarket one. My metallurgist said I wasted my money because of the material. I forget what the material is but once I told her she said cryo has no effect on that material type. What material? I didn't think cryo did anything to aluminum, but turned out I was wrong.
2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320 100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft) weight reduction, wheels, tires, Hellcat air box: 1.661, 11.686 at 115.97 (DA 710 ft)
1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip [2008] pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
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Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ?
[Re: Brad_Haak]
#3091725
11/04/22 09:15 PM
11/04/22 09:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,270 Morrow, OH
markz528
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I cryoed a 727 output shaft before Rick Allison sold me an aftermarket one. My metallurgist said I wasted my money because of the material. I forget what the material is but once I told her she said cryo has no effect on that material type. What material? I didn't think cryo did anything to aluminum, but turned out I was wrong. Has to do with carbon content. For life of me I can’t remember if the output shaft is high or low carbon content steel. Cryo works on one of them but has almost or no effect on the other.
67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph 67 Coronet 500 (street car) 14.82 @ 94 mph 69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
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Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ?
[Re: Brad_Haak]
#3091730
11/04/22 09:19 PM
11/04/22 09:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,136 Melbourne , Australia
LA360
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An aftermarket output shaft would most likely be 300M, 4340 or something similar
Transmission gears will be 8620, EN36A, 9310 or something in that range. Something that is case hardened I would imagine, where as a shaft would be through hardened. I'll have to ask one of the material scientists at work about why cryogenic treatment might not work on some materials.
Alan Jones
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Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ?
[Re: Uberpube]
#3091803
11/05/22 09:43 AM
11/05/22 09:43 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,703 North Dakota
6PakBee
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Neither, get the parts WPC treated. I looked on a few sites and WPC seems to be in the family of shot peening, a surface treatment. Heat treatment and cryogenic are internal treatments. I think they all have their place depending on what you are trying to achieve.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ?
[Re: Uberpube]
#3093128
11/10/22 12:40 PM
11/10/22 12:40 PM
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JohnRR
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Neither, get the parts WPC treated. Where do you get that done ? The output shaft in the 4WD OD unit of the 47RE behind my 500HP Cummins was cryo treated because at the time billet wasn't readily available AND about 800bucks. I twisted off a factory piece power braking it against the convertor but I was too gunshy to try it again after fixing, but I never broke another with all the racing I was doing at the time.
running up my post count some more .
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Re: Heat treat or Cryo on tranny gears ?
[Re: Uberpube]
#3093254
11/10/22 08:59 PM
11/10/22 08:59 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,552 Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
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I Live Here
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Most production parts are already heat treated so the only thing you can really do to them is external treatments. The WPC process is a lot finer than than standard shotpeening. A lot of the import cars never had aftermarket support for transmission parts or ring and pinions so it WPC became the trick to making stock parts live in performance applications. I use it a lot on my rotary engine builds. I've been looking at some Youtube videos about this WPC coating and it looks like it has many applications in our drivetrains. I think oil pump rotors could really be a good application for this treatment. Transmission gears and rear gears would be a no brainer for this type of surface prep. I'm going to look into local outfits that may provide this service. Thanks for the information Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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