Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Paint and body guys......clear coat? #3088394
10/22/22 07:40 PM
10/22/22 07:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,323
La Grange, Ky
70rrclone Offline OP
pro stock
70rrclone  Offline OP
pro stock

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,323
La Grange, Ky


What clear coat would be good for a beginner doing a complete car? I have used Amtech 600 in the past under the hood. Due to paint color issues I need to redo under the hood plus the rest of the car.
I have researched clears until my head is ready to explode. 2:1 3;1 4;1 which is better? seems 2:1 would give more wet edge time? all I have readily available locally is Nason 497 and a cromax clear. what would you recommend for a beginner? I am not limited to local choices; I have been leaning towards Matrix MS-52. any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Shane

Re: Paint and body guys......clear coat? [Re: 70rrclone] #3088406
10/22/22 08:31 PM
10/22/22 08:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,459
Omaha Ne
T
TJP Offline
I Live Here
TJP  Offline
I Live Here
T

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,459
Omaha Ne
Originally Posted by 70rrclone


What clear coat would be good for a beginner doing a complete car? I have used Amtech 600 in the past under the hood. Due to paint color issues I need to redo under the hood plus the rest of the car.
I have researched clears until my head is ready to explode. 2:1 3;1 4;1 which is better? seems 2:1 would give more wet edge time? all I have readily available locally is Nason 497 and a cromax clear. what would you recommend for a beginner? I am not limited to local choices; I have been leaning towards Matrix MS-52. any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Shane


I'm not a professional painter but I would stay with the same company that supplied the base coat as there sometimes can be compatibility issues. i would also not rely on a paint store counter persons input> Doing so cost me dearly and required stripping a car that was about 80% reassembled before the problems started appearing frown.
From that point forward I select a paint brand / company. I then call their area rep, tell them what I'm doing and follow their advice to the letter. I sold a car recently with 28 year old PPG paint. The buyer called me a week or so later ad said several of his friends that painted for a living did not believe the paint was 28 years old. I said sorry. but the facts are what they are and you have the dated receipts for the materials used.

The counter guys will sometimes try to suggest a cheaper line on materials claiming everybody does it. That may be true but I am looking for paint that will last and not fail in 5 years. One JERK wanted to argue the point on a cheaper topcoat made by the same company. I finally resorted to asking for the data sheets showing the topcoat he was pushing was compatible with the base. It wasn't listed whistling
But everybody uses the cheaper line he continued to argue. I said I'm not everybody, can you get me the manager or owner? he buckled and sold me exactly what I was told to buy. it was on a friends car that was sold 15 years later and looked as good as the day we finished it.
Sorry for the length but it's my twocents based on my limited experience beer

Re: Paint and body guys......clear coat? [Re: TJP] #3088436
10/23/22 12:41 AM
10/23/22 12:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,947
Canada -- Posts: 4034 -Registe...
5
5thAve Offline
Doesn't care what this says anyway
5thAve  Offline
Doesn't care what this says anyway
5

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,947
Canada -- Posts: 4034 -Registe...
Paint stores are a lot like parts stores. Some of them the counter people are only there to sell stuff. Other ones they know what they're talking about. There are good paint stores around where the staff are trained by the manufacturers and know there stuff. The one store here will give you recommendations based on what you're trying to do and will tell you if your ideas will work or you should be doing something different. They sell pretty much everything from the paint right down to sand paper, paint guns and wax, even compressors and paint booths. It's always interesting to see what they have on their shelves.

Re: Paint and body guys......clear coat? [Re: 5thAve] #3088499
10/23/22 08:03 AM
10/23/22 08:03 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,750
new berlin wisconsin
M
Mr T2U Offline
master
Mr T2U  Offline
master
M

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,750
new berlin wisconsin
25 year + PG certified painter / autobody tech here.
as far as mixing ratios on how long the paint stays "WET" is completely irrelevant.

mixing ratios are determined by VISCOSITY or thickness of the clear. in the end most air dry clears will have the same or close to the same viscosity after they are mixed.
the "WET" part or i call flash off window is determined by the reducer and a lot of times the catalyst mixed into the paint. in solvent paint products, the more you reduce a product the faster it will dry. also the higher the air pressure at the spray tip of the gun the faster it will dry.

YES some clears will dry faster than others. this is determined by the design of the clear coat chemistry. some clears are designed for use in a baking spray booth. some are good for air dry. most clears are not described in literature this way. the basic description will be in the single to multiple panel repair to overall repair.
you can also extend the wet edge by adding some retarder.
everything regarding clear coats is a compromise to get it do do what you want it to do and the way you paint it.


i do agree with the stay with 1 manufacturers products from primer to top coat. then read the tech sheets in compatible products. this will keep you out of trouble MOST of the time.
i myself would never intermix brands until i am used to it and how it performs. once you get used to a product the more you can abuse it.


as for clear i use at home and jobs for myself. i have been using Omni 270 clear for a LONG time. for a while this was called shop line clear. PPG dropped this name a while ago. in my opinion this clear is reformulated DAU 82 clear PPG created in the mid to late 70's. it was the absolute top of the line clear when it was introduced. it's a really multiple use clear that preforms well in most situations. i still use this clear a LOT in my day job. it both air dries and takes a bake extremely well. it works in a bake booth best. after cure it buffs extremely easy, holds it shine and really doesn't dye back unless really abuse it with not enough flash time and solvent trap it. this can be a big problem in air dry situations. also buffing before its fully cured can cause dye back.
i also use this clear over both water and solvent base basecoats.

Last edited by Mr T2U; 10/23/22 08:10 AM.

perception is 90% of reality
Re: Paint and body guys......clear coat? [Re: 5thAve] #3088502
10/23/22 08:34 AM
10/23/22 08:34 AM
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 558
rust belt
M
Moparite Offline
mopar
Moparite  Offline
mopar
M

Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 558
rust belt
I have two main paint stores near me one is a BASF dealer and that's all they deal in. The other has PPG and just about everything else. Both know exactly what they are selling and can help. I also would keep the same manufacture paint and reducer also if needed. Mixing manufactures/paints can result in adverse reactions You can also look the paint up by the manufacture and they will usually tell you want clear can be used with it.

Re: Paint and body guys......clear coat? [Re: Mr T2U] #3088522
10/23/22 10:39 AM
10/23/22 10:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,459
Omaha Ne
T
TJP Offline
I Live Here
TJP  Offline
I Live Here
T

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,459
Omaha Ne
Originally Posted by Mr T2U
25 year + PG certified painter / autobody tech here.
as far as mixing ratios on how long the paint stays "WET" is completely irrelevant.

mixing ratios are determined by VISCOSITY or thickness of the clear. in the end most air dry clears will have the same or close to the same viscosity after they are mixed.
the "WET" part or i call flash off window is determined by the reducer and a lot of times the catalyst mixed into the paint. in solvent paint products, the more you reduce a product the faster it will dry. also the higher the air pressure at the spray tip of the gun the faster it will dry.

YES some clears will dry faster than others. this is determined by the design of the clear coat chemistry. some clears are designed for use in a baking spray booth. some are good for air dry. most clears are not described in literature this way. the basic description will be in the single to multiple panel repair to overall repair.
you can also extend the wet edge by adding some retarder.
everything regarding clear coats is a compromise to get it do do what you want it to do and the way you paint it.


i do agree with the stay with 1 manufacturers products from primer to top coat. then read the tech sheets in compatible products. this will keep you out of trouble MOST of the time.
i myself would never intermix brands until i am used to it and how it performs. once you get used to a product the more you can abuse it.


as for clear i use at home and jobs for myself. i have been using Omni 270 clear for a LONG time. for a while this was called shop line clear. PPG dropped this name a while ago. in my opinion this clear is reformulated DAU 82 clear PPG created in the mid to late 70's. it was the absolute top of the line clear when it was introduced. it's a really multiple use clear that preforms well in most situations. i still use this clear a LOT in my day job. it both air dries and takes a bake extremely well. it works in a bake booth best. after cure it buffs extremely easy, holds it shine and really doesn't dye back unless really abuse it with not enough flash time and solvent trap it. this can be a big problem in air dry situations. also buffing before its fully cured can cause dye back.
i also use this clear over both water and solvent base basecoats.


Mr T, I just had to comment, Ironically it was a Omni clear the counter guy was pushing LOL, And I do believe it was the DAU clear tat was recommended but don't remember the # this would have been about 2000 or so. God only knows haw many changes they've made over the years shruggy But when a counter guy gives me advice, I remember my first PAINFUL experience of doing so. I tend to follow the MFR's information. IMO, most body shops have to cut costs where they can as the insurance companies are like the GOV. with taxpayers. Additionally the chances of a comeback 5 years down the road are pretty slim as most people are in another vehicle by that time or it has so many miles on it they don't care.
thanks for jumping in as you obviously know way more than I do on this subject. beer

Re: Paint and body guys......clear coat? [Re: TJP] #3088610
10/23/22 05:09 PM
10/23/22 05:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,750
new berlin wisconsin
M
Mr T2U Offline
master
Mr T2U  Offline
master
M

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,750
new berlin wisconsin
omni 270 clear is pretty universal and rather abuser friendly. i use it over BOTH water and solvent based basecoat. me and the 5 other guys i work with probably spray 2-3 GALLONS a week this way depending on work load. if the car is over 5 years old it gets Omni clear, EXCEPT if it's a front bumper and sometimes if it's a hood depending on condition of the car. if it's 1 of the 2 it gets Envirobase EC520-530-550 depending on job size. i THINK we go thru about $8,000 a month in materials.
i also know of several people using it over shermin willams solvent base coat. if i remember correctly it doesn't like going over lacquer paint.


as far as DAU 82 clear. i think PPG hasn't sold it this way since the late 80's - early 90's.

as far as comebcks. these days it seems most people lease instead of buy. 3 years and get a new one. i myself would never do that but what do i know. i work on cars worth more than what i bought my house for 12 years ago.
i think i have gotten maybe 5 comebacks due to paint failures in the 35+ years i have worked at where i am at.

Last edited by Mr T2U; 10/23/22 05:18 PM.

perception is 90% of reality
Re: Paint and body guys......clear coat? [Re: 70rrclone] #3088633
10/23/22 07:07 PM
10/23/22 07:07 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 156
Idaho
B
boomerodell Offline
member
boomerodell  Offline
member
B

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 156
Idaho
Omni is hard to beat for the hobbyist and even the professional shop that needs a value line product. It's a nice affordable system from undercoats, single stage, base/clear etc. Omni plus basecoat is great. They have a few different options for clear from production to overall/complete clears. MC161 is my favorite omni clear 2:1 ratio. Limco(basf) 4100 or 4200 are also great value line clears.
However I have used a lot of finish one products or Sherwin Williams, but not clear yet. Just primer surfacers and sealers, and honestly have never been disappointed. Next project I'm tempted to try this. My local NAPA carries it. Don't overthink mix ratios. Just mix per p sheet and slower is always better than faster if you question temp range.

https://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Overall-Clearcoat-Hardener-HARDENER/dp/B01MR96I32?th=1

Re: Paint and body guys......clear coat? [Re: Mr T2U] #3088865
10/24/22 01:57 PM
10/24/22 01:57 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 17,245
north of coder
moparx Offline
"Butt Crack Bob"
moparx  Offline
"Butt Crack Bob"

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 17,245
north of coder
mr. T, why is there a difference in use on a bumper ?
does it have something to do with the "flex agent" [?] needed because the bumper is plastic ?
i know absolutely nothing about painting.
beer

Re: Paint and body guys......clear coat? [Re: moparx] #3089041
10/25/22 06:59 AM
10/25/22 06:59 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,750
new berlin wisconsin
M
Mr T2U Offline
master
Mr T2U  Offline
master
M

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,750
new berlin wisconsin
DURABILITY
the newer ultra high solid clear coats and significantly more durable than the old technology paint .
front bumpers get sandblasted even with OEM paint on them. hoods take a pretty good beating also. that's why we use it on those parts.


as far as flex agents in bumper repairs.
i have used it less than 5 times my entire life. i really don't know anybody that actually uses it.
actually it was designed to keep the paint flexable for assembly and it evaporates away in a about 1 month. in that time it makes the clear extremely difficult to work on.


perception is 90% of reality
Re: Paint and body guys......clear coat? [Re: Mr T2U] #3089076
10/25/22 10:26 AM
10/25/22 10:26 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,459
Omaha Ne
T
TJP Offline
I Live Here
TJP  Offline
I Live Here
T

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,459
Omaha Ne
While we're picking your RAM, LOL, are you aware of any of the newer clears that can be applied over a 40 year old lacquer paint job that is still in excellent condition?
the paint over the years has had a tendency for a very slight amount of what appears to be orange peel reappear but only in certain areas which is puzzling shruggy A quick hit with 1500 or so and it's gone for varying amounts of time. The one area most consistent is the hood.
It's almost as though the paint is partially returning to it's as sprayed condition before wet sanding.
My concern is with the repeated sanding's, I'll eventually bust through the clear frown . I do have more of the clear that appears to still be good as it has been stored in a cool almost constant temp environment (Basement backroom which is underground and walled off).
But I love the durability of the newer paints. drool
Your thought's ? TIA beer

Re: Paint and body guys......clear coat? [Re: TJP] #3089096
10/25/22 11:44 AM
10/25/22 11:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,947
Canada -- Posts: 4034 -Registe...
5
5thAve Offline
Doesn't care what this says anyway
5thAve  Offline
Doesn't care what this says anyway
5

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,947
Canada -- Posts: 4034 -Registe...
I've seen bumper fillers have problems when flex agent wasn't used and also spider webbing on bumper covers but that can also happen with it. I think a lot of that also depends on the hardener and paint itself.

Re: Paint and body guys......clear coat? [Re: 5thAve] #3089567
10/27/22 07:07 AM
10/27/22 07:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,323
La Grange, Ky
70rrclone Offline OP
pro stock
70rrclone  Offline OP
pro stock

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,323
La Grange, Ky
Thanks for all the great information! Most of what I have been using is Axalta/Dupont. After another conversation with the paint store, they revealed they do have Cromax ($600ish gallon kit) and SPI/SPEE?($1500 Gallon kit) The Cromax is considerably higher than the Nason 497 ($175 gallon kit) they carry but offers better UV protection. This car will be a daily driver and spend a lot of time outside. so, I think it will benefit from the extra protection. I get the feeling If I went with the Nason I would be redoing it in a few years. The SPI/SPEE is over double the cost of Cromax so I will pass on that one. It looks like I will end up using Cromax.

Thanks
Shane

Re: Paint and body guys......clear coat? [Re: 70rrclone] #3089607
10/27/22 10:00 AM
10/27/22 10:00 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,736
So Near, Yet So Far
topside Offline
I Live Here
topside  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,736
So Near, Yet So Far
"Spee" is probably Spies-Hecker - a very good product.
That's what's on my '68 pictured.
Some of the DuPont/Axalta line of products will cross-link.
The Nason clear on the hood of my '96 Breeze - which gets all manner of environmental abuse all year - has held up fine.

LFOct2020.JPG
Re: Paint and body guys......clear coat? [Re: 70rrclone] #3089615
10/27/22 10:30 AM
10/27/22 10:30 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,403
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline
I Live Here
ZIPPY  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,403
S.E. Michigan
Spee couldn't have been spi/southern polyurethanes, not for that kind of money.

https://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/

I've been using SPI cleaners, reducers, epoxy and 2k surfacer for awhile now and am pretty happy with performance and value.
Will most likely use one of their clears as well once I get to that point.

For some smaller things (sprayouts, and a recent engine) I have been experimenting with FC720
(that is the one posted earlier from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Overall-Clearcoat-Hardener-HARDENER/dp/B01MR96I32?th=1 )
This seems like a very user friendly product to me and a good value.
I'm thinking it might be an ideal clear for jambs, trunk and engine bay but will probably use the more expensive spi for the exterior of my current project.

On my last one I tried to try try to use products from one manufacturer, which at the time was Matrix, but am not going to do that any longer.
Modern epoxy, 2k surfacer, urethane basecoat, urethane clear don't really seem to vary much and that's all I will use.
I've done all my prep with spi products, will be using PPG basecoat and will choose a clearcoat.
The last one I used Matrix MS52 clear, it was stored outdoors for many years and held up amazingly well, may go that way again but have the itch to
try something different and a little easier to polish.


Rich H.











Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1