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Trans pan bolts mess #3086336
10/15/22 05:00 PM
10/15/22 05:00 PM
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fredericksburg,va
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cudaman1969 Offline OP
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A small rant here, 2005 Dakota 3.7 4x4 auto trans. Seems the powers got it wrong, they changed the tried and true 5/16 course thread bolt that we’ve used quite well for 60+ years to a M8-1.25 mm FINE THREAD bolt. Out of the 13 I just did 9 helicoils because when removing they pulled the treads out with them. Fine tread and aluminum don’t mix to well. One hour Filter and fluid change took two days. Has anyone else have this problem? Not sure what trans it is, does not look like the 904-727. 180,000 miles and still looks good though. Of course that V6 is a weak puppy.
Rant over.

Re: Trans pan bolts mess [Re: cudaman1969] #3086346
10/15/22 05:46 PM
10/15/22 05:46 PM
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massachusetts U.S.A.
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1969ronnie Offline
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wave YUP , Very common up here in the Salty Northeast . Thats why even with 100 Miles on a NEW Vehicle , We go over and Remove , Paint with Copper Never seize , and Re-install , doing them 1 at a time . Saves HOURS and DAYS of work , especially if YOU are going to be the Mechanic , or Servicing it in the Future . drive Ronnie

Re: Trans pan bolts mess [Re: 1969ronnie] #3086657
10/16/22 08:14 PM
10/16/22 08:14 PM
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Southeast Pa.
SALEM1912 Offline
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They don't care!

Re: Trans pan bolts mess [Re: cudaman1969] #3086733
10/17/22 06:39 AM
10/17/22 06:39 AM
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360view Offline
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Originally Posted by cudaman1969
A small rant here, 2005 Dakota 3.7 4x4 auto trans. Seems the powers got it wrong, they changed the tried and true 5/16 course thread bolt that we’ve used quite well for 60+ years to a M8-1.25 mm FINE THREAD bolt. Out of the 13 I just did 9 helicoils because when removing they pulled the treads out with them. Fine tread and aluminum don’t mix to well. One hour Filter and fluid change took two days. Has anyone else have this problem? Not sure what trans it is, does not look like the 904-727. 180,000 miles and still looks good though. Of course that V6 is a weak puppy.
Rant over.


I posted here of going through the same problem with the trans pan on a 2005 3.3L

I blamed it on the dealership mechanic using a Torque gun to put the pan back on.

Your info now has me considering whether it happened taking the pan off.

Did the metric change happen between 2004/2005 model years?

Re: Trans pan bolts mess [Re: 360view] #3086773
10/17/22 09:17 AM
10/17/22 09:17 AM
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fredericksburg,va
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cudaman1969 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by 360view
Originally Posted by cudaman1969
A small rant here, 2005 Dakota 3.7 4x4 auto trans. Seems the powers got it wrong, they changed the tried and true 5/16 course thread bolt that we’ve used quite well for 60+ years to a M8-1.25 mm FINE THREAD bolt. Out of the 13 I just did 9 helicoils because when removing they pulled the treads out with them. Fine tread and aluminum don’t mix to well. One hour Filter and fluid change took two days. Has anyone else have this problem? Not sure what trans it is, does not look like the 904-727. 180,000 miles and still looks good though. Of course that V6 is a weak puppy.
Rant over.


I posted here of going through the same problem with the trans pan on a 2005 3.3L

I blamed it on the dealership mechanic using a Torque gun to put the pan back on.

Your info now has me considering whether it happened taking the pan off.

Did the metric change happen between 2004/2005 model years?

No clue when but I say the first year of that trans. Just a poor design imo. BTW bolt came out with the trans threads still in the threads of the bolt. The previous time I had the pan off (70,000 miles) I tightened them with a 4–1/2” long 1/4” drive ratchet (using my fingers not the palm) no way where they overtightened.

Re: Trans pan bolts mess [Re: cudaman1969] #3086802
10/17/22 10:00 AM
10/17/22 10:00 AM
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moparx Offline
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too bad you had to helicoil those holes. they should have been a course thread to start with.
if that had happened to me, i would have either helicoiled to a course thread on all the holes, or just drilled and tapped the case to either 5/16-18 or 3/8-16 thread. provided there was enough meat around the thread bosses.
beer

Re: Trans pan bolts mess [Re: moparx] #3086844
10/17/22 11:42 AM
10/17/22 11:42 AM
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fredericksburg,va
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cudaman1969 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by moparx
too bad you had to helicoil those holes. they should have been a course thread to start with.
if that had happened to me, i would have either helicoiled to a course thread on all the holes, or just drilled and tapped the case to either 5/16-18 or 3/8-16 thread. provided there was enough meat around the thread bosses.
beer

I thought of that too but the helicoil are stainless so I doubt they will strip out now

Re: Trans pan bolts mess [Re: moparx] #3087101
10/18/22 09:15 AM
10/18/22 09:15 AM
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U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
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Originally Posted by moparx
too bad you had to helicoil those holes. they should have been a course thread to start with.
if that had happened to me, i would have either helicoiled to a course thread on all the holes, or just drilled and tapped the case to either 5/16-18 or 3/8-16 thread. provided there was enough meat around the thread bosses.
beer


I looked at the specs because I thought the same thing about changing them to 5/16-18 but the drill bit for a 5/16-18 is smaller than the required 8mm hole.

Might be better to helicoil them to 5/16-18 ? I've done that on a trans I know would have the pan on and off a lot.


running up my post count some more .
Re: Trans pan bolts mess [Re: JohnRR] #3087226
10/18/22 03:54 PM
10/18/22 03:54 PM
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moparx Offline
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Originally Posted by JohnRR
Originally Posted by moparx
too bad you had to helicoil those holes. they should have been a course thread to start with.
if that had happened to me, i would have either helicoiled to a course thread on all the holes, or just drilled and tapped the case to either 5/16-18 or 3/8-16 thread. provided there was enough meat around the thread bosses.
beer


I looked at the specs because I thought the same thing about changing them to 5/16-18 but the drill bit for a 5/16-18 is smaller than the required 8mm hole.

Might be better to helicoil them to 5/16-18 ? I've done that on a trans I know would have the pan on and off a lot.




5/16-18 tap drill size is "F" drill [.257]
M8x1.25 tap drill size is "H" drill [.266]
3/8-16 tap drill size is 5/16 [.312]

the required hole size for a 5/16-18 helicoil tap is "Q" drill [.332]
the required hole size for a M8x1.25 helicoil is 21/64 drill [.328]

lots of possibilities here.
just be sure there is enough meat around the hole so the case won't be weakened by drilling the tap drill size required for the hole repair. up
beer

Re: Trans pan bolts mess [Re: JohnRR] #3087245
10/18/22 05:10 PM
10/18/22 05:10 PM
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Heilcoil what you need then put in all studs and nuts

Re: Trans pan bolts mess [Re: cudaman1969] #3087260
10/18/22 06:37 PM
10/18/22 06:37 PM
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ILLINOIS
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volaredon Offline
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I had exactly the opposite happen to me. (Actually a trans we "had" rebuilt for my son)
We took a 727 in for a bench rebuild. We had pulled the pan to drain upon removal of trans, and only put the pan back on by 4-5 bolts. 5/16-18 like all 727s from day 1.
We got it back with whatever scrounged up bolts the trans shop could dig up, the SOBs put M8s in it!!!! I had the same helicoil mess as you describe as a result.
I haven't been back since, went back to doing my own. Cheaper and I know it's done right.
I have a 12 ram 1500 with a 65 RFE trans (whatever RFE stands for,) and am about to do the 1st trans service since I bought it. Records show it had one done at 50k and I'm at 106k, (I missed doing one like I planned at 100kk I hope your thread isn't "advance warning of what I have took forward to.
I bought the filters from the stealership because the parts store couldn't decide if what they had would fit my truck or not. I wasn't expecting to pay around $80 for them!!!!! Damn.... That would buy me about 8 of them for a 727,904 or 46re.... And the price of ATF+4 has gotten ridiculous as well .. I never thought I'd see $11/quart at Walmart even.... Same as Napa wants.

Re: Trans pan bolts mess [Re: volaredon] #3087336
10/18/22 10:26 PM
10/18/22 10:26 PM
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fredericksburg,va
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cudaman1969 Offline OP
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I feel for ya, I’m almost sure my 06 diesel trans had the 5/16 bolts after I rebuilt it at 40,000 miles. O Reilies has gallons for $28 ATF-4, I know the guy who works there. 2jugs and filter was around $60 I’ll continue doing my own work until I'm to old to get under the vehicles(73). I trust no one to do the work. Might get one of those new fangled lift thingys one day.

Re: Trans pan bolts mess [Re: cudaman1969] #3087432
10/19/22 09:43 AM
10/19/22 09:43 AM
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volaredon Offline
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I'm 55 and have the "lift thingy" already. Mostly use it for my own stuff, (very) occasionally I will do a side job for someone else, I don't like "big" ones that keep the lift tied up more than a couple of nights after work.
I know of people 20 years older than me that admittedly run circles around me, but I'm already finding things that used to take me a couple of hours take me a day or more..... Some things always did take me longer than the same thing takes others I know..... Story of another thread, there.
But yeah I get tired of shoddy work too. I trust nobody else to work on my vehicle but me. When I have to have something done I'm right there watching the work done.

Re: Trans pan bolts mess [Re: jpm1916] #3087538
10/19/22 04:04 PM
10/19/22 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by jpm1916
Heilcoil what you need then put in all studs and nuts


I like that suggestion

Re: Trans pan bolts mess [Re: jpm1916] #3087670
10/20/22 02:42 AM
10/20/22 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by jpm1916
Heilcoil what you need then put in all studs and nuts



up


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Re: Trans pan bolts mess [Re: moparx] #3087682
10/20/22 05:11 AM
10/20/22 05:11 AM
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A12 Offline
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Originally Posted by moparx
Originally Posted by JohnRR
Originally Posted by moparx
too bad you had to helicoil those holes. they should have been a course thread to start with.
if that had happened to me, i would have either helicoiled to a course thread on all the holes, or just drilled and tapped the case to either 5/16-18 or 3/8-16 thread. provided there was enough meat around the thread bosses.
beer


I looked at the specs because I thought the same thing about changing them to 5/16-18 but the drill bit for a 5/16-18 is smaller than the required 8mm hole.

Might be better to helicoil them to 5/16-18 ? I've done that on a trans I know would have the pan on and off a lot.




5/16-18 tap drill size is "F" drill [.257]
M8x1.25 tap drill size is "H" drill [.266]
3/8-16 tap drill size is 5/16 [.312]

the required hole size for a 5/16-18 helicoil tap is "Q" drill [.332]
the required hole size for a M8x1.25 helicoil is 21/64 drill [.328]

lots of possibilities here.
just be sure there is enough meat around the hole so the case won't be weakened by drilling the tap drill size required for the hole repair. up
beer



moparx from your tap drill sizes it would appear the 8X1.25 mm bolt is nearly equal to the 5/16-18 if not slightly LARGER by 0.009". Not much but nearly equal but still larger. Also in metric fasteners an 8X1.25 is not considered a fine thread, a fine thread 8mm bolt would be an 8X1.0 or 8X.08. That being said an 8X1.25 has 20.32 threads per inch compared to (5/16)-16 per inch so not that big of a difference in engineering standards for fasteners. A 5/16 bolt is 7.9375 mm which again is shorter than an 8mm bolt and would be threaded in a minimum of 0.0535" more than a 5/16. Meaning the 8X1.25 is actually stronger than a comparable 5/16-18 bolt or fastener and the claim of putting weaker fasteners would not hold (pun) up in engineering court wink The case of the of I didn't use a torque wrench and who the #3LL ever does when putting pan bolts on so chalk it up to "damn I hate when that happens and now I have to Helicoil them". The only way that an 8X1.25 mm bolt could pull the threads of an aluminum case/trans housing would be if there was LESS than 8mm worth of bolt threaded into the aluminum and that's not including the pan and gasket but directly into the aluminum case. You have to add the gasket and pan thickness to the length of the fastener or you will pull threads.

Re: Trans pan bolts mess [Re: A12] #3087714
10/20/22 08:02 AM
10/20/22 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by A12
The case of the of I didn't use a torque wrench and who the #3LL ever does when putting pan bolts on so chalk it up to "damn I hate when that happens and now I have to Helicoil them".


I use a torque wrench on them. I spent many hours repairing aluminum threads when I was in the Navy because hamfisted sailors reefed down on them.

And I can guarantee that you can rip out aluminum threads even if you have 8mm of thread engaged. Just keep tightening and it will happen. Now if it were steel on steel, or iron, you'd like snap the bolt, but not on aluminum.

Re: Trans pan bolts mess [Re: Sniper] #3087723
10/20/22 08:32 AM
10/20/22 08:32 AM
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cudaman1969 Offline OP
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There were 4 bolts that ‘stripped’ each one had aluminum imbedded in the threads. I then checked the rest and any that looked suspect were fixed. Maybe they were compromised before I got truck (trans had been into) with 10,000 miles on it.

Re: Trans pan bolts mess [Re: Sniper] #3087818
10/20/22 01:28 PM
10/20/22 01:28 PM
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moparx Offline
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Originally Posted by Sniper
Originally Posted by A12
The case of the of I didn't use a torque wrench and who the #3LL ever does when putting pan bolts on so chalk it up to "damn I hate when that happens and now I have to Helicoil them".


I use a torque wrench on them. I spent many hours repairing aluminum threads when I was in the Navy because hamfisted sailors reefed down on them.

And I can guarantee that you can rip out aluminum threads even if you have 8mm of thread engaged. Just keep tightening and it will happen. Now if it were steel on steel, or iron, you'd like snap the bolt, but not on aluminum.




i always say : "tighten 'em up till they strip or break, then back 'em off 1/2 a turn"........... biggrin
beer







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