Random question - springs for 590 MP cam
#3082149
10/01/22 10:07 AM
10/01/22 10:07 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,163 Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl
OP
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OP
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Plymouth, MI
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I'm shopping for heads for the 446 Fury, and think I've narrowed it down to the Trick Flow 240's.
They're offered with 2 different springs, one is labeled for hydraulic cams, the other for solid rollers. The rates are:
1.46" spring, 120# installed, 1.90" height, 394# open at 1.175", 390# rate 1.55" spring, 135# installed, 1.95" height, 430# open at 1.25", 420# rate
I asked Trick Flow's help line and they just gave me the spring specs and said to ask the cam manufacturer. Since the cam is ancient and is the older 590 grind I figure I'd ask here first. I did search and got a range of answers but figured I'd ask again, and also saw a suggestion that the recommended MP valvespring was garbage, lol.
I don't plan on revving it past ~6800ish, it still has stock rods and the heavy TRW 2355's in it. Is the 1.46" spring enough to keep it out of valve float, or are neither of those options an acceptable choice?
Thanks, Nick
'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
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Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam
[Re: Blusmbl]
#3082154
10/01/22 10:37 AM
10/01/22 10:37 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161 CT
GTX MATT
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master
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CT
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The 1.46 spring is supposed to be for hydraulic flat tappets and the 1.55 is supposed to be for hydraulic rollers.
You need at least the 1.55 in my opinion. I’m not sure thats enough, would be about 380 open, but its close. The springs for the solid rollers they sell are way too much.
The 1.46 springs would put you about 350 open.
Also, not to make you second guess yourself, but I just sold my new in box 240s and ordered the 270s a few months back for my stock stroke 440. The 270s are actually supposed to be delivered to me today. Engine Masters on motor trend tested the 240s vs the 270s and picked up 40-50 HP going to the 270s on a stock stroke motor with a small hydraulic roller (235ish @ .050 and around .550 lift). They didn’t lose any TQ, but only pulled it down to around 3500 RPM. They did run a super victor intake with the 270s and the trick flow intake with the 240s.
One issue with the 270s though is getting a good 4150 flanged MW intake.
Last edited by GTX MATT; 10/01/22 11:05 AM.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam
[Re: Blusmbl]
#3082216
10/01/22 12:50 PM
10/01/22 12:50 PM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 3,159 Md.
carnut68
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master
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Md.
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I'm shopping for heads for the 446 Fury, and think I've narrowed it down to the Trick Flow 240's.
They're offered with 2 different springs, one is labeled for hydraulic cams, the other for solid rollers. The rates are:
1.46" spring, 120# installed, 1.90" height, 394# open at 1.175", 390# rate 1.55" spring, 135# installed, 1.95" height, 430# open at 1.25", 420# rate
I asked Trick Flow's help line and they just gave me the spring specs and said to ask the cam manufacturer. Since the cam is ancient and is the older 590 grind I figure I'd ask here first. I did search and got a range of answers but figured I'd ask again, and also saw a suggestion that the recommended MP valvespring was garbage, lol.
I don't plan on revving it past ~6800ish, it still has stock rods and the heavy TRW 2355's in it. Is the 1.46" spring enough to keep it out of valve float, or are neither of those options an acceptable choice?
Thanks, Nick
Comp 928. !55 closed 355 open @ 1,88 installed hght. That's what I've been running with the 590.
America First!
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Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam
[Re: Blusmbl]
#3082281
10/01/22 03:57 PM
10/01/22 03:57 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,118 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Last edited by Cab_Burge; 10/01/22 03:59 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3082309
10/01/22 05:08 PM
10/01/22 05:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,631 Stuttgart, Arkansas
rickseeman
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I'm sure MP has a spec spring for that cam. So you look at the specs for that spring and make the decision.
2011 Drag Pak Challenger
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Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam
[Re: rickseeman]
#3082316
10/01/22 05:54 PM
10/01/22 05:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,631 Stuttgart, Arkansas
rickseeman
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master
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In the 2002 Mopar Performance catalog the 590 cam (P4120663) calls for a P2806077 spring. That spring is: 1.52" diameter 1.86 installed height 135 lbs on the seat 405 lbs open made of .216" wire so the 1.55" spring look closest. And I would want 1.55" springs anyway because that's what I have retainers and cups for.
Last edited by rickseeman; 10/01/22 05:55 PM.
2011 Drag Pak Challenger
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Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam
[Re: rickseeman]
#3082332
10/01/22 06:43 PM
10/01/22 06:43 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,069 Michigan
A727Tflite
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master
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In the 2002 Mopar Performance catalog the 590 cam (P4120663) calls for a P2806077 spring. That spring is: 1.52" diameter 1.86 installed height 135 lbs on the seat 405 lbs open made of .216" wire so the 1.55" spring look closest. And I would want 1.55" springs anyway because that's what I have retainers and cups for. Used the -077 (Purple Stripe) spring on my early SS car with a STX - 22 Racer Brown with about the same lift. Seems I have come across some later examples of this spring that were low on the open pressure. The early ones, late 60’s to very early 80’s were
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Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam
[Re: A727Tflite]
#3082336
10/01/22 07:00 PM
10/01/22 07:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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The 077 springs I had my hands on in the 90’s-00’s were some of the worst springs I’d ever come across.
Very low seat load, too much open load, and very little available travel.
I refused to install them on heads.
115@1.850 135@1.800
375@1.300 420@1.250
C/B@1.200
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam
[Re: Blusmbl]
#3082430
10/02/22 10:04 AM
10/02/22 10:04 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,923 NC
440Jim
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They're offered with 2 different springs, one is labeled for hydraulic cams, the other for solid rollers. The rates are:
1.46" spring, 120# installed, 1.90" height, 394# open at 1.175", 390# rate 1.55" spring, 135# installed, 1.95" height, 430# open at 1.25", 420# rate
Nick
For info, if you have the heads setup for 1.90" seat height, the "roller" springs will be about 155# on the seat and 400# open. IMO, that is fine for the MP 0.590" cam. Any flat tappet will have increased risk of lobe wiping as the spring pressures go up, and that is getting up there. I have run 150/440 but with EDM oil hole lifters, good oil, lots of care, and accepting the risk. But it is hard to recommend 440# open to others. So, 140-150 and 390-400 is my 2-cents.
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Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam
[Re: 440Jim]
#3082452
10/02/22 11:48 AM
10/02/22 11:48 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,163 Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl
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OP
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Plymouth, MI
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Thanks guys, seems it's pretty clear that 1.46" spring isn't enough, and the 1.55" works for multiple people and is in the ballpark. Sounds like the 10* retainers are preferred anyway. Jim- I assume all that would take is adding a 50 thou shim under the spring?
The 240 vs. 270 debate is something I hadn't really considered, my original thinking was I could reuse my shortblock, intake, rockers, cam and carb with the 240's, was trying to prevent further scope creep and wallet spending. 270's would add the intake expense, and at that point I think my 850 DP is too small, and I'm also worried that on a 446" the ports are too big for it to cruise cleanly at low speeds. It looks like they make more power everywhere above 4000 rpm though, and would be the clear choice for a 512.
I'll think on it further for sure.
Last edited by Blusmbl; 10/02/22 11:49 AM.
'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
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Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam
[Re: Blusmbl]
#3082476
10/02/22 01:32 PM
10/02/22 01:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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Before deciding on whether or not spring shimming is necessary....... go to the spring page on the TF site and look up the specs(TFS-16094).
You’ll see they don’t agree with the paperwork that comes with the heads........ but they do agree with the specs that the spring manufacturer shows for that spring(PAC 1294).
On my tester, the springs match the PAC specs.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#3082557
10/02/22 07:50 PM
10/02/22 07:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,163 Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl
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OP
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Plymouth, MI
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Before deciding on whether or not spring shimming is necessary....... go to the spring page on the TF site and look up the specs(TFS-16094).
You’ll see they don’t agree with the paperwork that comes with the heads........ but they do agree with the specs that the spring manufacturer shows for that spring(PAC 1294).
On my tester, the springs match the PAC specs. Thanks for that, totally doesn't match what the tech guy emailed me, but it's impossible to argue with the info right from PAC's website plus your test data! If I'm doing the math right, at 1.95" installed height, that would be 153.6# on the seat and 406.1# open, which sounds like more than enough spring rate and I definitely shouldn't shim them, if anything it might be too much spring.
'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
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Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam
[Re: Blusmbl]
#3082682
10/03/22 11:30 AM
10/03/22 11:30 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,039 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
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Before deciding on whether or not spring shimming is necessary....... go to the spring page on the TF site and look up the specs(TFS-16094).
You’ll see they don’t agree with the paperwork that comes with the heads........ but they do agree with the specs that the spring manufacturer shows for that spring(PAC 1294).
On my tester, the springs match the PAC specs. , which sounds like more than enough spring rate and I definitely shouldn't shim them, if anything it might be too much spring. Yes, and I've known many to use the 928 spring but am not remembering the loads. Guess what I'm getting at is you need the spring matched to the cam regardless if it came on the heads or not. That said, sounds like Dwayne is directing you properly.
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Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3082692
10/03/22 11:45 AM
10/03/22 11:45 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I Live Here
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Thanks for that, totally doesn't match what the tech guy emailed me, but it's impossible to argue with the info right from PAC's website plus your test data!
They sent you the info from the instruction sheet that comes with the heads........which doesn’t agree with the info on the TF spring tech page. The load chart from PAC shows the 1294 to be 154@1.950/410@1.350.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#3082844
10/03/22 01:45 PM
10/03/22 01:45 PM
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Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,117 Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Dec 2021
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Loudoun County, VA
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Here's one of those W T H? things I've found... PAC 1243 springs coil bind specs vary depend on where you look: https://www.racingsprings.com/index.php/valve-spring-11301.html - says 1.053" https://www.racingsprings.com/media/wysiwyg/2020_Master_Catalog_FINAL_Web.pdf - pg 14 says 1.070" - pg 15 says 1.150", yet their chart still gives a rating of 653 lbs at 1.150" The set I have measured 1.150" consistently. What's it say about... whatever... when the manufacturer's specs aren't even consistent or correct?
2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320 100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft) weight reduction, wheels, tires, Hellcat air box: 1.661, 11.686 at 115.97 (DA 710 ft)
1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip [2008] pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
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Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam
[Re: Brad_Haak]
#3082864
10/03/22 02:37 PM
10/03/22 02:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I Live Here
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What it says is....... this is why it’s a good idea to have everything looked over before installation.
Catalogs are full of typos..........and/or info that’s just wrong.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#3082887
10/03/22 02:49 PM
10/03/22 02:49 PM
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Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,117 Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak
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super stock
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Yeah, checked some Isky "Super Rad" springs I have at the same time as I measured the PACs and confirmed Isky's advertised CB of 1.120" was correct.
2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320 100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft) weight reduction, wheels, tires, Hellcat air box: 1.661, 11.686 at 115.97 (DA 710 ft)
1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip [2008] pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
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Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3084707
10/10/22 05:49 AM
10/10/22 05:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,840 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
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make sure it starts immediately and rev up to over 1500 RPM to break those new lifters and cam in properly I believe it's a used engine that has run quite a bit, so the cam and lifters should have hopefully mated and broke in long ago. Good luck with the project Nick.
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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