Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Random question - springs for 590 MP cam #3082149
10/01/22 09:07 AM
10/01/22 09:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,813
Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl Offline OP
master
Blusmbl  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,813
Plymouth, MI
I'm shopping for heads for the 446 Fury, and think I've narrowed it down to the Trick Flow 240's.

They're offered with 2 different springs, one is labeled for hydraulic cams, the other for solid rollers. The rates are:

1.46" spring, 120# installed, 1.90" height, 394# open at 1.175", 390# rate
1.55" spring, 135# installed, 1.95" height, 430# open at 1.25", 420# rate

I asked Trick Flow's help line and they just gave me the spring specs and said to ask the cam manufacturer. Since the cam is ancient and is the older 590 grind I figure I'd ask here first. I did search and got a range of answers but figured I'd ask again, and also saw a suggestion that the recommended MP valvespring was garbage, lol.

I don't plan on revving it past ~6800ish, it still has stock rods and the heavy TRW 2355's in it. Is the 1.46" spring enough to keep it out of valve float, or are neither of those options an acceptable choice?

Thanks,
Nick


'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam [Re: Blusmbl] #3082154
10/01/22 09:37 AM
10/01/22 09:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,121
CT
GTX MATT Offline
master
GTX MATT  Offline
master

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,121
CT
The 1.46 spring is supposed to be for hydraulic flat tappets and the 1.55 is supposed to be for hydraulic rollers.

You need at least the 1.55 in my opinion. I’m not sure thats enough, would be about 380 open, but its close. The springs for the solid rollers they sell are way too much.

The 1.46 springs would put you about 350 open.

Also, not to make you second guess yourself, but I just sold my new in box 240s and ordered the 270s a few months back for my stock stroke 440. The 270s are actually supposed to be delivered to me today. Engine Masters on motor trend tested the 240s vs the 270s and picked up 40-50 HP going to the 270s on a stock stroke motor with a small hydraulic roller (235ish @ .050 and around .550 lift). They didn’t lose any TQ, but only pulled it down to around 3500 RPM. They did run a super victor intake with the 270s and the trick flow intake with the 240s.

One issue with the 270s though is getting a good 4150 flanged MW intake.

Last edited by GTX MATT; 10/01/22 10:05 AM.

Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam [Re: Blusmbl] #3082216
10/01/22 11:50 AM
10/01/22 11:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,650
Md.
C
carnut68 Offline
master
carnut68  Offline
master
C

Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,650
Md.
Originally Posted by Blusmbl
I'm shopping for heads for the 446 Fury, and think I've narrowed it down to the Trick Flow 240's.

They're offered with 2 different springs, one is labeled for hydraulic cams, the other for solid rollers. The rates are:

1.46" spring, 120# installed, 1.90" height, 394# open at 1.175", 390# rate
1.55" spring, 135# installed, 1.95" height, 430# open at 1.25", 420# rate

I asked Trick Flow's help line and they just gave me the spring specs and said to ask the cam manufacturer. Since the cam is ancient and is the older 590 grind I figure I'd ask here first. I did search and got a range of answers but figured I'd ask again, and also saw a suggestion that the recommended MP valvespring was garbage, lol.

I don't plan on revving it past ~6800ish, it still has stock rods and the heavy TRW 2355's in it. Is the 1.46" spring enough to keep it out of valve float, or are neither of those options an acceptable choice?

Thanks,
Nick



Comp 928. !55 closed 355 open @ 1,88 installed hght. That's what I've been running with the 590.

Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam [Re: Blusmbl] #3082281
10/01/22 02:57 PM
10/01/22 02:57 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 40,855
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 40,855
Bend,OR USA
The diameter of the spring has nothing to do with how much pressure it has, there are 1.46 diameter roller cam springs and others of the same size for two barrel stock motors shruggy
On your deal I would buy and use a spring that would have between 120 to 150 lbs. on the seats and between 300 to 375 lbs. open pressure wrench scope twocents

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 10/01/22 02:59 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam [Re: Cab_Burge] #3082309
10/01/22 04:08 PM
10/01/22 04:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,285
Stuttgart, Arkansas
rickseeman Offline
top fuel
rickseeman  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,285
Stuttgart, Arkansas
I'm sure MP has a spec spring for that cam. So you look at the specs for that spring and make the decision.


2011 Drag Pak Challenger
Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam [Re: rickseeman] #3082316
10/01/22 04:54 PM
10/01/22 04:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,285
Stuttgart, Arkansas
rickseeman Offline
top fuel
rickseeman  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,285
Stuttgart, Arkansas
In the 2002 Mopar Performance catalog the 590 cam (P4120663) calls for a P2806077 spring. That spring is:
1.52" diameter
1.86 installed height
135 lbs on the seat
405 lbs open
made of .216" wire
so the 1.55" spring look closest. And I would want 1.55" springs anyway because that's what I have retainers and cups for.

Last edited by rickseeman; 10/01/22 04:55 PM.

2011 Drag Pak Challenger
Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam [Re: rickseeman] #3082332
10/01/22 05:43 PM
10/01/22 05:43 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,749
Michigan
T
Transman Offline
master
Transman  Offline
master
T

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,749
Michigan
Originally Posted by rickseeman
In the 2002 Mopar Performance catalog the 590 cam (P4120663) calls for a P2806077 spring. That spring is:
1.52" diameter
1.86 installed height
135 lbs on the seat
405 lbs open
made of .216" wire
so the 1.55" spring look closest. And I would want 1.55" springs anyway because that's what I have retainers and cups for.


Used the -077 (Purple Stripe) spring on my early SS car with a STX - 22 Racer Brown with about the same lift.

Seems I have come across some later examples of this spring that were low on the open pressure.
The early ones, late 60’s to very early 80’s were up

Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam [Re: Transman] #3082336
10/01/22 06:00 PM
10/01/22 06:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,171
So. Burlington, Vt.
F
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here
fast68plymouth  Offline
I Live Here
F

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,171
So. Burlington, Vt.
The 077 springs I had my hands on in the 90’s-00’s were some of the worst springs I’d ever come across.

Very low seat load, too much open load, and very little available travel.

I refused to install them on heads.

115@1.850
135@1.800

375@1.300
420@1.250

C/B@1.200

60F21A2A-589D-4636-88ED-9F15DDE44C4F.jpeg

68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam [Re: Blusmbl] #3082419
10/02/22 07:55 AM
10/02/22 07:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,647
Keymar, MD
DusterKid Offline
top fuel
DusterKid  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,647
Keymar, MD
I have the Tf 240 with the 1.55" spring, 135# installed, 1.95" height, 430# open at 1.25", 420# rate. I went with this option due to the 10 degree locks vs 7 degree. I don't run the MP 590 cam, but the MP 557 cam. Motor been together for 4 years now and haven't had any issues. I shift my motor at 6500 and it sees maybe 67-6800 at the strip on a day with really good air.

Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam [Re: Blusmbl] #3082430
10/02/22 09:04 AM
10/02/22 09:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,790
Western NC
440Jim Offline
I Live Here
440Jim  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,790
Western NC
Originally Posted by Blusmbl

They're offered with 2 different springs, one is labeled for hydraulic cams, the other for solid rollers. The rates are:

1.46" spring, 120# installed, 1.90" height, 394# open at 1.175", 390# rate
1.55" spring, 135# installed, 1.95" height, 430# open at 1.25", 420# rate

Nick

For info, if you have the heads setup for 1.90" seat height, the "roller" springs will be about 155# on the seat and 400# open.
IMO, that is fine for the MP 0.590" cam. Any flat tappet will have increased risk of lobe wiping as the spring pressures go up, and that is getting up there. I have run 150/440 but with EDM oil hole lifters, good oil, lots of care, and accepting the risk. But it is hard to recommend 440# open to others. So, 140-150 and 390-400 is my 2-cents.

Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam [Re: 440Jim] #3082452
10/02/22 10:48 AM
10/02/22 10:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,813
Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl Offline OP
master
Blusmbl  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,813
Plymouth, MI
Thanks guys, seems it's pretty clear that 1.46" spring isn't enough, and the 1.55" works for multiple people and is in the ballpark. Sounds like the 10* retainers are preferred anyway. Jim- I assume all that would take is adding a 50 thou shim under the spring?

The 240 vs. 270 debate is something I hadn't really considered, my original thinking was I could reuse my shortblock, intake, rockers, cam and carb with the 240's, was trying to prevent further scope creep and wallet spending. 270's would add the intake expense, and at that point I think my 850 DP is too small, and I'm also worried that on a 446" the ports are too big for it to cruise cleanly at low speeds. It looks like they make more power everywhere above 4000 rpm though, and would be the clear choice for a 512.

I'll think on it further for sure.




Last edited by Blusmbl; 10/02/22 10:49 AM.

'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam [Re: Blusmbl] #3082476
10/02/22 12:32 PM
10/02/22 12:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,171
So. Burlington, Vt.
F
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here
fast68plymouth  Offline
I Live Here
F

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,171
So. Burlington, Vt.
Before deciding on whether or not spring shimming is necessary....... go to the spring page on the TF site and look up the specs(TFS-16094).

You’ll see they don’t agree with the paperwork that comes with the heads........ but they do agree with the specs that the spring manufacturer shows for that spring(PAC 1294).

On my tester, the springs match the PAC specs.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam [Re: fast68plymouth] #3082557
10/02/22 06:50 PM
10/02/22 06:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,813
Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl Offline OP
master
Blusmbl  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,813
Plymouth, MI
Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
Before deciding on whether or not spring shimming is necessary....... go to the spring page on the TF site and look up the specs(TFS-16094).

You’ll see they don’t agree with the paperwork that comes with the heads........ but they do agree with the specs that the spring manufacturer shows for that spring(PAC 1294).

On my tester, the springs match the PAC specs.


Thanks for that, totally doesn't match what the tech guy emailed me, but it's impossible to argue with the info right from PAC's website plus your test data!

If I'm doing the math right, at 1.95" installed height, that would be 153.6# on the seat and 406.1# open, which sounds like more than enough spring rate and I definitely shouldn't shim them, if anything it might be too much spring.


'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam [Re: Blusmbl] #3082606
10/02/22 10:23 PM
10/02/22 10:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 40,855
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 40,855
Bend,OR USA
How about using a set of +.050 retainers and locks to get a little more installed height work scope twocents
I would be a lot more pleased on using 140 to 145 Lbs. on the seat sand 380 to 390 lbs. opened.
Either way make sure it starts immediately and rev up to over 1500 RPM to break those new lifters and cam in properly wrench up


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam [Re: Blusmbl] #3082682
10/03/22 10:30 AM
10/03/22 10:30 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,584
Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB Offline
master
HardcoreB  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,584
Shelby Twp. Mi
Originally Posted by Blusmbl
Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
Before deciding on whether or not spring shimming is necessary....... go to the spring page on the TF site and look up the specs(TFS-16094).

You’ll see they don’t agree with the paperwork that comes with the heads........ but they do agree with the specs that the spring manufacturer shows for that spring(PAC 1294).

On my tester, the springs match the PAC specs.


, which sounds like more than enough spring rate and I definitely shouldn't shim them, if anything it might be too much spring.

Yes, and I've known many to use the 928 spring but am not remembering the loads. Guess what I'm getting at is you need the spring matched to the cam regardless if it came on the heads or not. That said, sounds like Dwayne is directing you properly.

Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam [Re: Cab_Burge] #3082692
10/03/22 10:45 AM
10/03/22 10:45 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,171
So. Burlington, Vt.
F
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here
fast68plymouth  Offline
I Live Here
F

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,171
So. Burlington, Vt.
Quote
Thanks for that, totally doesn't match what the tech guy emailed me, but it's impossible to argue with the info right from PAC's website plus your test data!


They sent you the info from the instruction sheet that comes with the heads........which doesn’t agree with the info on the TF spring tech page.
The load chart from PAC shows the 1294 to be 154@1.950/410@1.350.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam [Re: fast68plymouth] #3082844
10/03/22 12:45 PM
10/03/22 12:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 810
Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak Offline
super stock
Brad_Haak  Offline
super stock

Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 810
Loudoun County, VA
Here's one of those W T H? things I've found... PAC 1243 springs coil bind specs vary depend on where you look:
https://www.racingsprings.com/index.php/valve-spring-11301.html
- says 1.053"

https://www.racingsprings.com/media/wysiwyg/2020_Master_Catalog_FINAL_Web.pdf
- pg 14 says 1.070"
- pg 15 says 1.150", yet their chart still gives a rating of 653 lbs at 1.150"

The set I have measured 1.150" consistently.

What's it say about... whatever... when the manufacturer's specs aren't even consistent or correct? shruggy


2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320 (2022)
100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft)
wheels, tires, air filter: 1.714, 11.833 at 115.80 (DA 310 ft)

1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip (2008)
pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam [Re: Brad_Haak] #3082864
10/03/22 01:37 PM
10/03/22 01:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,171
So. Burlington, Vt.
F
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here
fast68plymouth  Offline
I Live Here
F

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,171
So. Burlington, Vt.
What it says is....... this is why it’s a good idea to have everything looked over before installation.

Catalogs are full of typos..........and/or info that’s just wrong.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam [Re: fast68plymouth] #3082887
10/03/22 01:49 PM
10/03/22 01:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 810
Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak Offline
super stock
Brad_Haak  Offline
super stock

Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 810
Loudoun County, VA
Yeah, checked some Isky "Super Rad" springs I have at the same time as I measured the PACs and confirmed Isky's advertised CB of 1.120" was correct.


2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320 (2022)
100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft)
wheels, tires, air filter: 1.714, 11.833 at 115.80 (DA 310 ft)

1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip (2008)
pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
Re: Random question - springs for 590 MP cam [Re: Cab_Burge] #3084707
10/10/22 04:49 AM
10/10/22 04:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,401
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline
I Live Here
ZIPPY  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,401
S.E. Michigan
Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
make sure it starts immediately and rev up to over 1500 RPM to break those new lifters and cam in properly wrench up


I believe it's a used engine that has run quite a bit, so the cam and lifters should have hopefully mated and broke in long ago.

Good luck with the project Nick.


Rich H.





Page 1 of 2 1 2






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1