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Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: topside] #3058471
07/12/22 12:19 AM
07/12/22 12:19 AM
Joined: Feb 2022
Posts: 1,171
Nor here, Nor there
D
Dart 500 Offline
super stock
Dart 500  Offline
super stock
D

Joined: Feb 2022
Posts: 1,171
Nor here, Nor there
Obvious blatant issues (stuck throttle, riding the brakes, 1300hp) aside. I lost all brakes last winter out of nowhere in heavy traffic on a busy 4 lane road. Yes your first instinct is to put it in park, it stops the car, thats what your brain thinks, but my first concern was getting off that road and I did, while pumping the s*** out of the pedal, brakes were barely doing anything by that point, it had blew a line in stop and go highway traffic just before and the drive thru for food rid the system of 95% brake fluid before heading back out with no idea yet, I thought it kept pushing through the brakes due to wind as it was VERY windy. Oh, it'll wake you up when you go for the brake and the pedal just drops to the floor. I got it into a wendys parking lot slow enough that putting it in park did stop it.

I was 2.5 hrs away from home, had it towed to a shop and it was fixed a couple days later.

Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: Dart 500] #3058583
07/12/22 02:13 PM
07/12/22 02:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,859
Puttin' on the foil in Charles...
not_a_charger Offline
Mr. Big Shot Moparts Moderator
not_a_charger  Offline
Mr. Big Shot Moparts Moderator

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,859
Puttin' on the foil in Charles...
Dumba$$ owner/driver replied on Youtube:

Quote

This is Russ, as I sat in the hospital for a couple days, I replayed everything in my head hundreds of times, things that I should have noticed as a warning, and what I could have done differently.

I’ve seen lots of comments so I’ll address a few of them, not being defensive at all.

In a normal car throttle sticking at 2200 RPM’s is not the end of the world, in my car that’s 900 ft/lbs of torque. I should have realized the load that was putting on the brakes. Didn’t cross my mind at the time. FYI: It had double springs on the throttle.

In a normal car, I could have pulled emergency brake, I even got a quote at Good Guy’s Del Mar for an electronic e-brake & bigger brakes. Hindsight’s 20-20, I was just gonna trailer it to a few shows & not drive it much till I could do that.

Why didn’t I downshift? Car had a B&M ratchet shifter, once I shifted up thru the gears you can’t downshift till you put it in park. So much going on in those last few seconds, forgot to downshift it after putting it in park, but it was probably too late to have had a big reduction in speed.

As far as I know, driver of van was not seriously injured. Beauty of a modern car with crumple zones, self tightening seat belts & air bags.

Car had liability coverage but no collision, I was still in the process of getting stated value insurance.


Earning every penny of that moderator paycheck.

DBAP
Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: not_a_charger] #3058585
07/12/22 02:23 PM
07/12/22 02:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,304
Omaha Ne
T
TJP Offline
I Live Here
TJP  Offline
I Live Here
T

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,304
Omaha Ne
Well he's famous now, and
"I was still in the process of getting stated value insurance." then maybe he shouldn't have been driving it twocents

Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: not_a_charger] #3058591
07/12/22 02:33 PM
07/12/22 02:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,228
Colleyville
3hundred Offline
I Live Here
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I Live Here

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Posts: 10,228
Colleyville
Some are fortunate enough to avoid troubles through common sense, some learn through the misfortune of others, some must experience the joy of pissing on the electric fence, and at the bottom are those who feel the need to justify the experience of pissing on the electric fence and post video for the amusement of the former.


'68 Fury Convertible
'69 300 Convertible
'15 Durango 5.7 Hemi
'16 300 S Hemi
Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: 3hundred] #3058597
07/12/22 02:40 PM
07/12/22 02:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,342
north of coder
moparx Offline
"Butt Crack Bob"
moparx  Offline
"Butt Crack Bob"

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,342
north of coder
like the saying goes, "it ain't the speed that does ya in, it's the sudden stop that does it every time." biggrin
beer

Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: moparx] #3058599
07/12/22 02:42 PM
07/12/22 02:42 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,342
north of coder
moparx Offline
"Butt Crack Bob"
moparx  Offline
"Butt Crack Bob"

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,342
north of coder
also, the old cartoon Ren and Stimpy, did a show titled "wizzing on the electric fence board game". laugh2
beer

Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: 67vertman] #3059023
07/13/22 08:28 PM
07/13/22 08:28 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,881
Pittsburgh,PA
RTSrunner Offline
top fuel
RTSrunner  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,881
Pittsburgh,PA
Need a voice over of Frank Rizzo from the Jerky Boys..."Shut it down Mike!" wink

Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: not_a_charger] #3059029
07/13/22 08:37 PM
07/13/22 08:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,830
Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, Can...
moparmike1 Offline
top fuel
moparmike1  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,830
Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, Can...
Originally Posted by not_a_charger
Dumba$$ owner/driver replied on Youtube:

Quote

This is Russ, as I sat in the hospital for a couple days, I replayed everything in my head hundreds of times, things that I should have noticed as a warning, and what I could have done differently.

I’ve seen lots of comments so I’ll address a few of them, not being defensive at all.

In a normal car throttle sticking at 2200 RPM’s is not the end of the world, in my car that’s 900 ft/lbs of torque. I should have realized the load that was putting on the brakes. Didn’t cross my mind at the time. FYI: It had double springs on the throttle.

In a normal car, I could have pulled emergency brake, I even got a quote at Good Guy’s Del Mar for an electronic e-brake & bigger brakes. Hindsight’s 20-20, I was just gonna trailer it to a few shows & not drive it much till I could do that.

Why didn’t I downshift? Car had a B&M ratchet shifter, once I shifted up thru the gears you can’t downshift till you put it in park. So much going on in those last few seconds, forgot to downshift it after putting it in park, but it was probably too late to have had a big reduction in speed.

As far as I know, driver of van was not seriously injured. Beauty of a modern car with crumple zones, self tightening seat belts & air bags.

Car had liability coverage but no collision, I was still in the process of getting stated value insurance.




That the owner/driver posted the above really isn't too smart.

If the driver of the van, or their lawyer, finds these comments, the owner/driver could be making a stupid situation even worse.

Mike.

Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: 67vertman] #3059177
07/14/22 12:44 PM
07/14/22 12:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,312
SoCal
68HemiB Offline
master
68HemiB  Offline
master

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,312
SoCal
To me, it is understandable that most laypersons don't understand the physics of friction brakes.
What is surprising is that so many "car guys" don't either - like the two seen in this car.

Brakes don't stop a car by "grabbing the rotor/drum to slow it down".

Friction brakes function by converting the kinetic energy of the vehicle mass in motion into heat energy in the hard parts, via friction...
...and then dispersing that heat energy into the surrounding air.

No matter the size/age/quality of the brakes, if you keep putting more heat into the hard parts without letting them disperse that heat into the surrounding air, the system will quit functioning.

Put the photo shoot on hold while you resolve the sticking throttle? Nope.
Well then.. kick the car into neutral periodically to quit accelerating? Nope.
Okay, so perhaps ponder exactly why you are smelling the brakes? Nope.

For added entertainment, the driver thinks that throwing the trans into Park is going to have a significant effect at the speed (note the brrrrrrrrrrrr of the parking pawl as it ineffectively grinds down).

Yep, the after-action reviewer thinks shoulder harnesses should have been used (um, how about you don't crash the car in the first place?)...
...and that they should have had a hand brake (to use an alternate method to add more heat into a overheated braking system). runaway


Down to just a blue car now.
Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: 68HemiB] #3059188
07/14/22 01:20 PM
07/14/22 01:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 9,428
Super Spudsville
Mr PotatoHead Offline
Half Baked
Mr PotatoHead  Offline
Half Baked

Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 9,428
Super Spudsville
To me, it is understandable that most laypersons don't understand the physics of friction brakes.


You really think most do not understand one of the most simple and basic brake systems?






Originally Posted by 68HemiB
To me, it is understandable that most laypersons don't understand the physics of friction brakes.
What is surprising is that so many "car guys" don't either - like the two seen in this car.

Brakes don't stop a car by "grabbing the rotor/drum to slow it down".

Friction brakes function by converting the kinetic energy of the vehicle mass in motion into heat energy in the hard parts, via friction...
...and then dispersing that heat energy into the surrounding air.

No matter the size/age/quality of the brakes, if you keep putting more heat into the hard parts without letting them disperse that heat into the surrounding air, the system will quit functioning.

Put the photo shoot on hold while you resolve the sticking throttle? Nope.
Well then.. kick the car into neutral periodically to quit accelerating? Nope.
Okay, so perhaps ponder exactly why you are smelling the brakes? Nope.

For added entertainment, the driver thinks that throwing the trans into Park is going to have a significant effect at the speed (note the brrrrrrrrrrrr of the parking pawl as it ineffectively grinds down).

Yep, the after-action reviewer thinks shoulder harnesses should have been used (um, how about you don't crash the car in the first place?)...
...and that they should have had a hand brake (to use an alternate method to add more heat into a overheated braking system). runaway



STOP POTATO HATE!
Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: Mr PotatoHead] #3059219
07/14/22 03:03 PM
07/14/22 03:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,312
SoCal
68HemiB Offline
master
68HemiB  Offline
master

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,312
SoCal
Originally Posted by Mr PotatoHead

You really think most do not understand one of the most simple and basic brake systems?


Yes I do.

I have had countless conversations with customers back when I wrenched,
family members over the years,
and numerous acquaintances,
who all think that brakes work simply by pads/shoes "grabbing onto" the rotor/drum to "slow it down".

The physics of kinetic energy -> heat energy -> dissipated into air is beyond them.

Ask a selection of laypeople, and see for yourself the percentage who can explain "kinetic energy -> heat energy -> dissipated into air", versus those who take the "grabbing onto" path.

(Then again, maybe you surround yourself with a more intelligent cross-section of unwashed society.)


Down to just a blue car now.
Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: 68HemiB] #3061492
07/21/22 07:52 PM
07/21/22 07:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,085
NotRussia
2
2fast4yourBrain Offline
Whack top Dodger
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Whack top Dodger
2

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,085
NotRussia
No mention of what exactly happened? I can't imagine the brakes boiling from riding the brakes unless he traveled some 200 miles or something.

I'm thinking there was a line broke and fluid loss. Although you'd think w/a trandem master cylinder, at least half of the brakes would still work.

My old auto shop teacher used to say: brakes, tires, steering. Everything else not as important.

Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: 2fast4yourBrain] #3061497
07/21/22 08:09 PM
07/21/22 08:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
feets Offline
Senior Management
feets  Offline
Senior Management

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
Interesting how he never thought to TURN THE ENGINE OFF to stop the problem.

Small diameter lightweight drag race brakes are really easy to overheat. It wouldn't take long for that to happen trying to hold back that thing.

He probably got the brakes hot enough to boil the fluid.

You can run that shifter back down. It's called pull the release up.


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: feets] #3061718
07/22/22 09:13 PM
07/22/22 09:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,538
Freeport IL USA
poorboy Offline
I Live Here
poorboy  Offline
I Live Here

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Posts: 10,538
Freeport IL USA
1200 HP, skinny front runners on the front, huge tires on the rear, riding the brakes to overcome a throttle that is sticking at higher rpm, sounds pretty easy to overheat the standard disc brakes that were on the front of the car.

The video shows a lot of smoke coming from the front of the car just before the crash. Its entirely possible the brakes were functioning great, they may have locked up the front tires, but those small front tires were probably overwhelmed by the stuck throttle and 1200 HP turning those huge rear tires, pushing the car forward. Or it could have been total brake failure. We don't really know if the pedal went to the floor, or it just didn't give the pedal feel, and the stopping result the guy was expecting, and hoping for.

Turning off the ignition may or may not have shut the motor off if it was turning 2500 rpm, and 2 seconds before the crash, that may not have made much difference anyway.

Its pretty easy to say what we think would do in that situation, being an arm chair race car driver about to crash is quite different then sitting in the driver seat at that critical time. What we think we might do may not be what really happens. Talk is cheap. Quite second guessing the guy.

Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: poorboy] #3061761
07/23/22 06:08 AM
07/23/22 06:08 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,859
Puttin' on the foil in Charles...
not_a_charger Offline
Mr. Big Shot Moparts Moderator
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Mr. Big Shot Moparts Moderator

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,859
Puttin' on the foil in Charles...
Quote
We don't really know if the pedal went to the floor, or it just didn't give the pedal feel, and the stopping result the guy was expecting, and hoping for.

You know what we do know, based on his own words? That he knew he had a dangerous problem, and chose to drive on a public roadway anyway.

Quote
Its pretty easy to say what we think would do in that situation, being an arm chair race car driver about to crash is quite different then sitting in the driver seat at that critical time. What we think we might do may not be what really happens. Talk is cheap. Quite second guessing the guy.


Any non-moron would've not driven the car until fixing the problem.


Earning every penny of that moderator paycheck.

DBAP
Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: not_a_charger] #3061853
07/23/22 01:47 PM
07/23/22 01:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,304
Omaha Ne
T
TJP Offline
I Live Here
TJP  Offline
I Live Here
T

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,304
Omaha Ne
Originally Posted by not_a_charger

You know what we do know, based on his own words? That he knew he had a dangerous problem, and chose to drive on a public roadway anyway.

Any non-moron would've not driven the car until fixing the problem.


NAILED IT whistling up
Wonder if moron's riding the brakes are related to global warming scope LOL

For anyone else questioning the overheating of brakes affecting their ability to function might ask why they have runaway truck ramps on the major roads through mountainous terrain whistling

Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: TJP] #3061946
07/23/22 09:35 PM
07/23/22 09:35 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,752
Phila
P
PhillyRag Offline
top fuel
PhillyRag  Offline
top fuel
P

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,752
Phila
Originally Posted by TJP
Originally Posted by not_a_charger

You know what we do know, based on his own words? That he knew he had a dangerous problem, and chose to drive on a public roadway anyway.

Any non-moron would've not driven the car until fixing the problem.


NAILED IT whistling up
Wonder if moron's riding the brakes are related to global warming scope LOL

For anyone else questioning the overheating of brakes affecting their ability to function might ask why they have runaway truck ramps on the major roads through mountainous terrain whistling


May not take much to have the linings and/or metal surfaces become glazed-over.
That will produce excessive heat without any, or minimal braking action.

Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: TJP] #3061984
07/24/22 12:49 AM
07/24/22 12:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,498
N.E. OHIO, USA
A12 Offline
Too Many Posts
A12  Offline
Too Many Posts

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,498
N.E. OHIO, USA
Bottom line IMO is he "boiled" the brake fluid from riding the brake pedal. Brake fluid in common hydraulic brake systems doesn't circulate so the pockets of brake fluid that pushes the caliper pistons is the first to fail and turn from a liquid to a gas. At that point the brake pedal goes right to the floor just as you can hear in the video. You can pump all you want but they are done. The brakes would have been fine for the most part had the driver not used them (riding the brake pedal) to control a vehicle with a sticking throttle......dumb @$$, Brakes take kinetic energy and convert it to heat energy and most brake systems can dissipate that heat energy without boiling the non-circulating brake fluid. Too much heat energy from riding the brakes and fail. I could get a rear brake disc and metallic sintered brake pads glowing in less than a minute on the dyno and the brake pedal would drop (no pedal pressure) and in most cases the brake line would start to melt and disconnect from the banjo fitting where it attached to the caliper. The guys in the race shop wouldn't believe me so the bets were on.................yep less than a minute to fail by riding the brake pedal.

20201231_005043.jpg20201231_005029.jpg
Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: A12] #3062063
07/24/22 12:01 PM
07/24/22 12:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,342
north of coder
moparx Offline
"Butt Crack Bob"
moparx  Offline
"Butt Crack Bob"

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,342
north of coder
that pic is scary indeed ! eek
that reminds me of when i used to watch nascar on tv during a night high bank short track race. the camera would focus on the wheels in the turns, glowing red. they seemed to cool off on the short straight stretch, then glow red again in the turn.
i wonder what brake fluid those guys used ?
beer

Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: moparx] #3062074
07/24/22 12:41 PM
07/24/22 12:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,166
Park Forest, IL
slantzilla Online content
Too Many Posts
slantzilla  Online Content
Too Many Posts

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,166
Park Forest, IL
IF the guy used drag race brakes on the car, they are not intended to make the car stop better. Their purpose is to be light. On a blown street car that is not a good choice.


"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
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