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Questions about adding air/fuel ratio meter #3058499
07/12/22 07:49 AM
07/12/22 07:49 AM
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Virginia
BSharp Offline OP
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Virginia
I've got a fresh engine running, have ordered an exhaust system, and this would seem a good time to add an O2 sensor provision. For a carburetor, is it a worthwhile tuning aid? I don't think I want a permanent gauge, just something temporary to get the carb set up. I don't have any experience with these, so what's a good source of information?

Re: Questions about adding air/fuel ratio meter [Re: BSharp] #3058504
07/12/22 08:02 AM
07/12/22 08:02 AM
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Benton, IL.
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DaveRS23 Online rolleyes
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For a street car, a wide band O2 is indispensable IMHO. BUT! The tuner has to understand the carb, it's circuits, and have the tools and parts to make the necessary changes. Seeing a problem is one thing, knowing where to go in the carb to address it is another.

As to the O2, things happen very fast so I think logging is a necessity. Trends such as the fuel curve through the RPM range can be hard to note without it. Besides, trying to drive and closely watch the gauge at the same time can get dicey.


Master, again and still
Re: Questions about adding air/fuel ratio meter [Re: BSharp] #3058524
07/12/22 09:14 AM
07/12/22 09:14 AM
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Indiana
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YO7_A66 Offline
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Definitely add one if you have the means. You can always remove it and plug the bung if you want to run one temporarily.


1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
Re: Questions about adding air/fuel ratio meter [Re: BSharp] #3058530
07/12/22 09:56 AM
07/12/22 09:56 AM
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Windsor, ON, Canada
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Diplomat360 Offline
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I had my trusty exhaust shop weld in an O2 bung right after the collectors (that way I didn't touch the headers which already had ceramic coating applied to them). This has always worked for me very well.

Like others have pointed out, to really make good use of this feature you'd want the ability to LOG. So from that perspective I do not actually have a fulltime connection/display in the dash, instead I hook up my O2 wide-band sensor, toss all of my Innovate stuff on (couple of boxes and extra sensors), fire-up the laptop and go for a tuning ride.

I go through a repeated process (so basically a Step1, Step2...StepN kind of a thing), do my data capture, come back home, park the car, crack open a cold one and replay it all back on my laptop as I jot a few notes down in my paper log-book.

It's actually kind of fun...I love doing the carb work and the only thing missing in my log today is a TPS setup for my Carter TQ and the second O2 sensor for the other cylinder bank. There are a few modules floating around out there, so once my new engine is up and running that'll probably be the next add-on.

Re: Questions about adding air/fuel ratio meter [Re: YO7_A66] #3058685
07/12/22 07:52 PM
07/12/22 07:52 PM
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Atlanta, GA
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mgoblue9798 Offline
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Originally Posted by YO7_A66
Definitely add one if you have the means. You can always remove it and plug the bung if you want to run one temporarily.


and then use it to tune the other cars and trucks in the fleet

Re: Questions about adding air/fuel ratio meter [Re: mgoblue9798] #3058687
07/12/22 07:57 PM
07/12/22 07:57 PM
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Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
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I’m tuning with an Autometer AF right now on a 427 Cobra. Without it it’s quesswork. Turned out it was leaning out under heavy throttle and I never would have guessed that. Also discovering that fuel bowl management with a Holley DP is harder than we think! Really glad I did this. Mine will be a permanent gauge. Stoich!

Last edited by Pacnorthcuda; 07/12/22 07:59 PM.
Re: Questions about adding air/fuel ratio meter [Re: BSharp] #3058692
07/12/22 08:09 PM
07/12/22 08:09 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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i bought and started using a Innovate LM1 years ago, later added the kit to convert it to dual readings and storing the readings on the control unit, I could start and stop recording the readings and transfer it to my lap top later for reading it at home up
I used that on my old pump gas Duster with a low deck six pack set up stroker motor wrench
That was one of the bust buys I have ever made bow scope

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 07/13/22 04:36 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Questions about adding air/fuel ratio meter [Re: Cab_Burge] #3058886
07/13/22 01:26 PM
07/13/22 01:26 PM
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Va Usa
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beecrazy Offline
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I added a innovate lm-2 with dual sensors to my bee a few years ago, I also added a tach input, throttle position sensor and a map sensor. I was able to log all of the inputs lm-2 and display on my laptop. It worked pretty well snd was really not that hard to setup.

Kevin

Re: Questions about adding air/fuel ratio meter [Re: beecrazy] #3058897
07/13/22 01:41 PM
07/13/22 01:41 PM
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Windsor, ON, Canada
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Diplomat360 Offline
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Kevin,

Originally Posted by beecrazy
I added a innovate lm-2 with dual sensors to my bee a few years ago, I also added a tach input, throttle position sensor and a map sensor...


Which TPS did you use? ...and which carb is it attached to?

I have LM-1, the RPM Kit and the AuxBox. I can do MAP with the AuxBox, the RPM converter captures a steady RPM signal, but the TPS really has to connect to the AuxBox.

Re: Questions about adding air/fuel ratio meter [Re: Diplomat360] #3058914
07/13/22 02:23 PM
07/13/22 02:23 PM
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Va Usa
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beecrazy Offline
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I think I bought it from innovate motorsports

TPS-TH36

Kevin

Re: Questions about adding air/fuel ratio meter [Re: beecrazy] #3058920
07/13/22 02:43 PM
07/13/22 02:43 PM
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Va Usa
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beecrazy Offline
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This is a picture of it installed

C631315A-375D-460A-8042-275B18E6636E.png
Re: Questions about adding air/fuel ratio meter [Re: beecrazy] #3058967
07/13/22 04:18 PM
07/13/22 04:18 PM
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Tulsa OK
Bad340fish Offline
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Great tool to have but you will need to learn the dark magic of carbs to really dial one in good. I learned so much after a successful carb build on a 500HP 360 that got good MPG and had good manners that I abandoned ship quickly and went EFI! I have a toolbox full of blank air bleeds and feed restrictors and all these tiny drill bits and that was the stepping off point for me haha.

In my opinion the TPS sensor on a carb doesn't have much value from a data logging standpoint.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
87 "Chrysler" Conquest
Re: Questions about adding air/fuel ratio meter [Re: Bad340fish] #3058990
07/13/22 05:15 PM
07/13/22 05:15 PM
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Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
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During my current Holley 4150 tuning I learned that he carb is extremely sensitive to float height. In fact it wants very low bowl levels or the carb floods out during cornering or heavy braking, and this is with whistles in both bowls, extensions in the secondary, and a connection tube on the bowl vents! Now I’m buying the ridiculously overpriced secondary linkage in order to bring the secondary’s in sooner.

Last edited by Pacnorthcuda; 07/13/22 05:37 PM.
Re: Questions about adding air/fuel ratio meter [Re: beecrazy] #3058991
07/13/22 05:37 PM
07/13/22 05:37 PM
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Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
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Originally Posted by beecrazy
This is a picture of it installed


Doesn’t the proximity of the harness to the secondary shaft concern you?

Re: Questions about adding air/fuel ratio meter [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #3059036
07/13/22 09:24 PM
07/13/22 09:24 PM
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Washington
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hemienvy Offline
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Excellent thread, thank you gents.

I'm leaning towards this, I'm leaning so much I've almost tipped over.

Re: Questions about adding air/fuel ratio meter [Re: hemienvy] #3059144
07/14/22 10:34 AM
07/14/22 10:34 AM
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S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline
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I'd recommend it to anyone. The difference adjusting idle fuel and transfer slot restriction on mine has been pretty dramatic, cleaned it right up.

Funny, once I knew how far off certain things were, I didn't hesitate to drill and tap a basically brand new carb for the tiny jets to make an adjustment where before I wouldn't want to do something like that to a new part.

I started off with a f.a.s.t. (comp) display, it worked fine during the day but the brightness of the display was too much for me at night + wasn't adjustable I wanted to tear the car down for a bunch of work anyway so I sold it to a buddy. My next one will probably be either an innovate or possibly daytona sensor.


Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




Re: Questions about adding air/fuel ratio meter [Re: ZIPPY] #3059187
07/14/22 01:20 PM
07/14/22 01:20 PM
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Posts: 4,871
Virginia
BSharp Offline OP
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Thanks for the replies. I'll for sure weld in a bung, so will have options.

Re: Questions about adding air/fuel ratio meter [Re: BSharp] #3059232
07/14/22 03:29 PM
07/14/22 03:29 PM
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Posts: 4,540
Motor City
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6PKRTSE Offline
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Motor City
I have both Racepak N2O's and all 8 Racepak EGT sensors on my Challenger. Always good tuning info to have and being able to data logging everything is nice, but costly as well.


1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute
1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack
1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi
1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL
1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383
1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440
1996 2500 RAM 488 V-10 4X4
2004 3500 Dually Cummins 4x4
2012 Challenger R/T Classic.
Re: Questions about adding air/fuel ratio meter [Re: Bad340fish] #3060118
07/18/22 09:01 AM
07/18/22 09:01 AM
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Windsor, ON, Canada
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Diplomat360 Offline
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Originally Posted by Bad340fish
...In my opinion the TPS sensor on a carb doesn't have much value from a data logging standpoint.


Hmm...interesting comment.

My goal in deploying a TPS on the TQ is to be able to correlate the metering rod position w/ respect to the jet, to the actual throttle openning itself.

Combine that with a VAC sensor reading and you've got yourself a fully featured "see through" Carter TQ model.

Heck...if that seems crazy, I do actually have a sectioned TQ body here that (umm...you know, COVID came to town, it was winter time...and I got bored LOL), that I've studied a little and have done my fair share of air-bleed adjustments and tuning already.







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