Re: Bronze gear wear
[Re: 6PakBee]
#3054607
06/30/22 09:47 AM
06/30/22 09:47 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,801 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
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What I think gets lost in these 'discussions' is how do the Magnums get away with the roller camshafts? I don't know of anything special with the distributor drive gears in them? I dove into this for awhile, maybe 12 years ago. The earliest 3.9s ate distributor gears and timing chains. Before leaving the big blue m in 2013 I never had access to the development info...as that was well above my pay grade and it happened several years in the past... but in the field the failures were often believed to be due to harmonics because of the firing order, since they started off as the same parts as a 318/lifespan was generally good in a 318.. After a certain model year, the intermediate shaft part number for the 3.9 mysteriously changed. I requested a print pull for the newer gear, and the spec was on the print. It had to have been a fix for the previous failures. The fix was melonized gear which I believe then carried over to 5.2-5.9, and also the famous timing chain tensioner was added/subject of another debate. Many of the aftermarket 5.2Magnum roller cams were ground on Crane cores which had a cast gear pressed on to a billet steel front. The MP 380HP 360 and variants that used the same 501/513 lift cam had this arrangement. Both the melonized gear and a regular gear could be used on those, but I believe the crate engine was the melonized part sourced from the 5.9L OE parts bin, as it would be the least expensive/best supply during that time period (which now feels like 100 years ago instead of 12).
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: Bronze gear wear
[Re: ZIPPY]
#3054609
06/30/22 09:49 AM
06/30/22 09:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,666 North Dakota
6PakBee
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
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North Dakota
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What I think gets lost in these 'discussions' is how do the Magnums get away with the roller camshafts? I don't know of anything special with the distributor drive gears in them? I dove into this for awhile, maybe 12 years ago. The earliest 3.9s ate distributor gears and timing chains. Before leaving the big blue m in 2013 I never had access to the development info...as that was well above my pay grade and it happened several years in the past... but in the field the failures were often believed to be due to harmonics because of the firing order, since they started off as the same parts as a 318/lifespan was generally good in a 318.. After a certain model year, the intermediate shaft part number for the 3.9 mysteriously changed. I requested a print pull for the newer gear, and the spec was on the print. It had to have been a fix for the previous failures. The fix was melonized gear which I believe then carried over to 5.2-5.9, and also the famous timing chain tensioner was added/subject of another debate. Many of the aftermarket 5.2Magnum roller cams were ground on Crane cores which had a cast gear pressed on to a billet steel front. The MP 380HP 360 and variants that used the same 501/513 lift cam had this arrangement. Both the melonized gear and a regular gear could be used on those, but I believe the crate engine was the melonized part sourced from the 5.9L OE parts bin, as it would be the least expensive/best supply during that time period (which now feels like 100 years ago instead of 12). Thank you, thank you. Clears up a lot of confusion in my mind.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Bronze gear wear
[Re: 6PakBee]
#3054653
06/30/22 12:16 PM
06/30/22 12:16 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,944 Apollo, PA.
B1MAXX
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Apollo, PA.
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What I think gets lost in these 'discussions' is how do the Magnums get away with the roller camshafts? I don't know of anything special with the distributor drive gears in them? cast roller cams don't need bronze gears.
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Re: Bronze gear wear
[Re: B1MAXX]
#3054707
06/30/22 02:52 PM
06/30/22 02:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,666 North Dakota
6PakBee
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I Live Here
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What I think gets lost in these 'discussions' is how do the Magnums get away with the roller camshafts? I don't know of anything special with the distributor drive gears in them? cast roller cams don't need bronze gears. Okay, fair enough. Is there a mild, streetable, cast aftermarket roller camshaft available?
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Bronze gear wear
[Re: 6PakBee]
#3054712
06/30/22 03:38 PM
06/30/22 03:38 PM
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Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,072 Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,072
Loudoun County, VA
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Going only by what I recall having read over the years, cast aftermarket roller cams got either a bad rep -- or a bum rap -- for durability issues with the higher-than-stock spring loads performance cams generally require. They were less expensive and didn't require anything special for a distributor gear, but people tried to use them in applications that really needed billet cores and had problems.
They were (are?) common for SBC and SBF; may have been available for some SBMs, too. I don't remember any cast roller cores for BBM.
2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320 (2022) 100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft) wheels, tires, air filter: 1.714, 11.833 at 115.80 (DA 310 ft)
1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip (2008) pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
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Re: Bronze gear wear
[Re: 6PakBee]
#3054731
06/30/22 05:37 PM
06/30/22 05:37 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,944 Apollo, PA.
B1MAXX
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,944
Apollo, PA.
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What I think gets lost in these 'discussions' is how do the Magnums get away with the roller camshafts? I don't know of anything special with the distributor drive gears in them? cast roller cams don't need bronze gears. Okay, fair enough. Is there a mild, streetable, cast aftermarket roller camshaft available? yes any hydro roller from howards, for a magnum.
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Re: Bronze gear wear
[Re: Brad_Haak]
#3054743
06/30/22 06:49 PM
06/30/22 06:49 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
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Going only by what I recall having read over the years, cast aftermarket roller cams got either a bad rep -- or a bum rap -- for durability issues with the higher-than-stock spring loads performance cams generally require. They were less expensive and didn't require anything special for a distributor gear, but people tried to use them in applications that really needed billet cores and had problems.
They were (are?) common for SBC and SBF; may have been available for some SBMs, too. I don't remember any cast roller cores for BBM. The first Isky roller cam that I installed (1971/1972) in a built 383 streetcar was a cast core solid roller 505 T grind, it lasted for ever, (probably less than 5000 miles total) the guy hardly ever drove the car. He had a Super Bird also that he preferred to drive for fun and attention
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Bronze gear wear
[Re: B1MAXX]
#3054798
06/30/22 09:59 PM
06/30/22 09:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,666 North Dakota
6PakBee
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
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North Dakota
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What I think gets lost in these 'discussions' is how do the Magnums get away with the roller camshafts? I don't know of anything special with the distributor drive gears in them? cast roller cams don't need bronze gears. Okay, fair enough. Is there a mild, streetable, cast aftermarket roller camshaft available? yes any hydro roller from howards, for a magnum. Thanks! I learned something new today.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Bronze gear wear
[Re: 6PakBee]
#3054805
06/30/22 10:22 PM
06/30/22 10:22 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,549 Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
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Rittman Ohio
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How about the Comp hydraulic roller Magnum 360 cams ? I'm building a 408 stroker from a crate 360 Magnum and the owner bought a Comp hydraulic roller for it. I still have the factory intermediate shaft and it looks really good. Probably should just get a bronze gear for it Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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Re: Bronze gear wear
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#3054856
07/01/22 08:42 AM
07/01/22 08:42 AM
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Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,072 Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,072
Loudoun County, VA
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What does the cam core look like? Or, if you have the cam card, the type of core should be identified in the part number. No point in using a bronze gear unless you have to.
2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320 (2022) 100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft) wheels, tires, air filter: 1.714, 11.833 at 115.80 (DA 310 ft)
1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip (2008) pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
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Re: Bronze gear wear
[Re: Brad_Haak]
#3054888
07/01/22 10:21 AM
07/01/22 10:21 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,753 Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
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Windsor, ON, Canada
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This discussion reminds me of the "cam material" info I saved in my "Auto Library" some time back as I was trying to figure out what my 2nd hand hydraulic roller cam is actually made of. So here is the info from CompCams: Austempered Iron Cores ======================
Austempered iron camshafts, also known as Austempered Ductile Iron (ADI), are similar to cast-iron, in that they are iron, and they are cast, but that's where the similarities end. Austempered iron is not the same as the cast-iron used on a flat-tappet cam. These are typically used in hydraulic-roller or mild solid-roller street-style camshafts. Austempered iron gears are compatible with traditional distributor gears, but we do recommend an upgrade to a melonized style of gear, but it's not absolutely necessary.
Like the cast-iron cam core, the Austempered iron blank has a roughed out lobe shape and layout, with journals very closed to the finished size. "We have literally hundreds of different styles of these cores. Once we know what kind of camshaft we're grinding we'll pick the proper core that has the right lobe configuration and then grind the camshaft," explains Campbell.
COMP's Austempered iron cam cores have bosses for mechanical fuel pumps, since they are also used in retrofit kits for engines without EFI, and will typically have a part number ending in "-8".
Further on, following a multi-email exchange with a CompCams Tech (who genuinely seemed like he knew what he was talking about and had no problems answering yet another email from this guy here - LOL), here is what he shared: Austempered Ductile Iron, which is basically the same material a flat tappet cam would be made of, but it is heat treated instead of parkerized like flat tappet cam would be so that the roller profile can be ground onto it and so that the hardened roller wheels can ride on the lobes without damaging the cam. In most cases you will only find the need for a composite or bronze gear when you are using a race type solid roller cam which is made from a solid piece of billet steel.
Finally, here is a link to a good EngineLabs article on Roller Cam CoresFor me, I did get the bronze gear at first, then ended up picking up a Melonized gear from Hughes and eventually just tossed my old MP setup because that is already mated to a hardened shaft and I am running a HV oil pump. We'll see how that turns out, but based on all of the above I should be fine.
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Re: Bronze gear wear
[Re: Brad_Haak]
#3055013
07/01/22 08:49 PM
07/01/22 08:49 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,549 Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
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What does the cam core look like? Or, if you have the cam card, the type of core should be identified in the part number. No point in using a bronze gear unless you have to. Well I looked at the cam and it's not billet, it looks like a cast unit. So I'm going to re-use the low mileage shaft that was in the engine. Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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Re: Bronze gear wear
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#3055682
07/03/22 11:22 PM
07/03/22 11:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,366 Michigan
MarkZ
Worthy
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Worthy
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,366
Michigan
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Bronze gear on 20w50 with a standard pump:
1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
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Re: Bronze gear wear
[Re: Mopar493]
#3055705
07/04/22 01:59 AM
07/04/22 01:59 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 171 Las Vegas, NV
chargerbr549
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member
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Las Vegas, NV
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Mopar 493, you stated that you have .010 end play on the distributor, could it possibly be too tight? The reason I ask is because I work in a engine machine shop and the guy who assembles the engines took a sbc/bbc aluminum distributor housing and measured it at room temperature and then put it in the oven and heated it to around 225 degrees and the overall length of the aluminum housing grew around .015" if I remember correctly, so I am wondering if when the engine gets hot there might not be any endplay left on the distributor shaft? I know that the sbc/bbc distributor setup is a little different from the mopar setup but it might be something to check. I would take and bolt the distributor in the engine and measure the end play cold and then measure the end play after the engine is hot to see if you still have end play if not then you could possibly be forcing the distributor gear down against the bushing in the block and causing problems that way. Just a thought.
Last edited by chargerbr549; 07/04/22 02:01 AM.
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Re: Bronze gear wear
[Re: MarkZ]
#3055865
07/04/22 02:15 PM
07/04/22 02:15 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,239 north of coder
moparx
"Butt Crack Bob"
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"Butt Crack Bob"
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,239
north of coder
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Bronze gear on 20w50 with a standard pump: what time frame/use/passes did that gear have ? my thoughts are, where do the gear particles cause the most damage to the rest of the internals ?
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Re: Bronze gear wear
[Re: MarkZ]
#3056069
07/05/22 08:25 AM
07/05/22 08:25 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,485 PA
moparacer
top fuel
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top fuel
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Posts: 2,485
PA
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Bronze gear on 20w50 with a standard pump: Holy gear wear batman.....Mine never look like that....I will get a pic of the one I replaced this year after about 200 passes and post it but its not near as bad as that.....
67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119 68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152 414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
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Re: Bronze gear wear
[Re: Brad_Haak]
#3057165
07/07/22 02:21 PM
07/07/22 02:21 PM
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Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 138 Sweden
Mopar493
OP
member
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OP
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Joined: Dec 2019
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Sweden
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What does the cam core look like? Or, if you have the cam card, the type of core should be identified in the part number. No point in using a bronze gear unless you have to. Here is an answer i get from Howard cams when i asked them some time ago, the core is 8660, its a custom grind cam. Im going with the melonized now, it feels like an more reliable option
Last edited by Mopar493; 07/07/22 02:30 PM.
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Re: Bronze gear wear
[Re: chargerbr549]
#3057168
07/07/22 02:26 PM
07/07/22 02:26 PM
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Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 138 Sweden
Mopar493
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member
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OP
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Sweden
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Mopar 493, you stated that you have .010 end play on the distributor, could it possibly be too tight? The reason I ask is because I work in a engine machine shop and the guy who assembles the engines took a sbc/bbc aluminum distributor housing and measured it at room temperature and then put it in the oven and heated it to around 225 degrees and the overall length of the aluminum housing grew around .015" if I remember correctly, so I am wondering if when the engine gets hot there might not be any endplay left on the distributor shaft? I know that the sbc/bbc distributor setup is a little different from the mopar setup but it might be something to check. I would take and bolt the distributor in the engine and measure the end play cold and then measure the end play after the engine is hot to see if you still have end play if not then you could possibly be forcing the distributor gear down against the bushing in the block and causing problems that way. Just a thought. Thats a thought. The 0.010" came from Hughes that was selling me the collar. Im going with the melonized gear now, it feels like a more reliable option.
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