Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: Kern Dog] #1190311
03/05/12 10:12 AM
03/05/12 10:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,322
Pikes Peak Country
T
TC@HP2 Offline
master
TC@HP2  Offline
master
T

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,322
Pikes Peak Country
Quote:

What did the trans-am and NASCAR guys run bak in the day?




Herein lies some of the problem; These two venues were considered contact sports, therefore increasingly heavy duty parts became required to allow the cars to finish races. Since these were the most practical handling applications of the era, many assume duplicating their configurations are the best means of skinning the cat these days and similarly install heavy duty parts where they may not necessarily be required. Nascar guys also use 3/4 and 1 ton full floater truck rear ends with oil coolers. That's probably overkill for a street app as well.

Quote:

It may have been in one of the above posts, but here goes: Are the C body tie rod ends the same size as the A, B and E cars? If not, I guess to use the 11/16" units, you'd need 2 inners, 2 outers along with the sleeves? Is the taper in the center link and lower ball joints are the same degree as the other cars?




Same size in what regard? The threaded shank on small units standard tie rods is 9/16, the large C body units are 11/16. So yes, to covnert you need two inners, two outers, and two adjusting sleeves. The taper fit is identical betwen the two sizes.

Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: jcc] #1190312
03/05/12 12:25 PM
03/05/12 12:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,213
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
Too Many Posts
autoxcuda  Offline
Too Many Posts

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,213
So Cal
Quote:

Quote:

What did the trans-am and NASCAR guys run bak in the day?




Nascar back in the day in a 4,000lb? cars at 200mph on a 31Deg banking for 500 miles in wheel to wheel competition with a 100,000 spectators behind a fence 20? feet away ran I believe 3/4" TR





Those car were 4200 lbs. And ran 200 mph for 500-600 miles. Had to take hits and rubs against other cars and objects. On top of that, a lot of the stuff was overbuilt.

The tie rods were massive. Do not copy these. It makes no sense to.

Tie rod was pn 2535126 Rt, and 2535127 Lt. Stock Rt tube 9 3/4" (not pictured) was 2535130. You probably could cross reference those p/n's. I'm sure off of some big commercial truck.

The tube pictured below is probably fabricated Petty Engineering tube.

Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: autoxcuda] #1190313
03/05/12 07:28 PM
03/05/12 07:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda Offline
About to go away
Supercuda  Offline
About to go away

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
At some point, we get to the weakest link. Since the tie rod's tapered stud still has to fit into the steering arms and centerlink, at what point does that become the failure point? Did the NASCAR boys run stock centerlinks and steering arms? Or where they upgraded to fit the possibly larger tapered stud on the HD parts?

I dunno


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: autoxcuda] #1190314
03/05/12 10:32 PM
03/05/12 10:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,323
NY NY
3
340duster340 Offline
master
340duster340  Offline
master
3

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,323
NY NY
cool pic and thanks for the info.

agree with the sentiment.

i am running the FFI solid sleeves with the larger ball joints.

Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: Supercuda] #1190315
03/05/12 11:31 PM
03/05/12 11:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,029
Wisconsin
A
Aero426 Offline
I Live Here
Aero426  Offline
I Live Here
A

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,029
Wisconsin
Quote:

Did the NASCAR boys run stock centerlinks and steering arms? Or where they upgraded to fit the possibly larger tapered stud on the HD parts?





To my knowledge, the Grand National suspension parts are all special purpose items not related to production.

Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: Aero426] #1190316
03/05/12 11:38 PM
03/05/12 11:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger Offline
master
72Swinger  Offline
master

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
Im probably gonna get some of these just for insurance against that crack or pothole at 150+.


Mopar to the bone!!!
Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: NV69B7RR] #1190317
03/06/12 01:43 AM
03/06/12 01:43 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,130
Thigh-Gap Junction
@
@#$%&*! Offline
New user name, Same old jerk!
@#$%&*!  Offline
New user name, Same old jerk!
@

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,130
Thigh-Gap Junction
Bigger parts are almost always stronger, if that's needed. When it comes to deflection, actual axial deflections would be microscopic and of no consequence. If the sleeve 'bows out' it's toast because it introduces a bending stress in addition to the compressive stress, greatly increasing the likelyhood of failure.
If you want to go for the solid, billet, forged, heat treated, gold plated HD sleeves that's fine but it's long been my contention that the factory sleeves are a designed-in failure point and FAILURE MODE. Imagine you're flying down the road and come upon the pothole from hell and something is going to fail. If you snap off a rod end or stud on the idler or pitman your steering control is mostly or completely gone. Having a weak point made of a ductile material, like the tie rod sleeve is, you're going to get a badly toed-out situation instead of a front wheel doing whatever it wants.

Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: @#$%&*!] #1190318
03/06/12 05:52 AM
03/06/12 05:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader Offline
Swears too much
Pale_Roader  Offline
Swears too much

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Quote:

Bigger parts are almost always stronger, if that's needed. When it comes to deflection, actual axial deflections would be microscopic and of no consequence. If the sleeve 'bows out' it's toast because it introduces a bending stress in addition to the compressive stress, greatly increasing the likelyhood of failure.
If you want to go for the solid, billet, forged, heat treated, gold plated HD sleeves that's fine but it's long been my contention that the factory sleeves are a designed-in failure point and FAILURE MODE. Imagine you're flying down the road and come upon the pothole from hell and something is going to fail. If you snap off a rod end or stud on the idler or pitman your steering control is mostly or completely gone. Having a weak point made of a ductile material, like the tie rod sleeve is, you're going to get a badly toed-out situation instead of a front wheel doing whatever it wants.





THIS... i think is a very good point.

As for the 1970 Nascar question. That stuff is always fun to know, and occasionally can still provide some answers to modern questions, but a LOT has changed in 40 years. Consider the Nascar hemi rods they used back then... This was 'serious' stuff! with 1/2" rod bolts... Run the idea ov using 1/2" rod bolts by the Engine Masters guys today and see how long it takes for the laughing to subside...

Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: Pale_Roader] #1190319
03/06/12 07:56 PM
03/06/12 07:56 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda Offline
About to go away
Supercuda  Offline
About to go away

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
I kinda look at the Engine Masters engines as purpose built, short durability win at all costs (limited by what you can afford) efforts. Not sure I'd want to put one in the wife's ride.

That said, the point about the sleeve being a failure point is a good one to consider.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: Supercuda] #1190320
03/06/12 08:43 PM
03/06/12 08:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader Offline
Swears too much
Pale_Roader  Offline
Swears too much

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Quote:

I kinda look at the Engine Masters engines as purpose built, short durability win at all costs (limited by what you can afford) efforts. Not sure I'd want to put one in the wife's ride.

That said, the point about the sleeve being a failure point is a good one to consider.




Still, no one, and i mean NO ONE would even consider such a massive connecting rod today. People in the know wont even use 6-pack rods anymore. There is no need. 40 years ago bigger was the only way to mean stronger, now we have better design, better technology, better metals, and have come to realize that while mass is good for strength in engine internals, light weight is worth more in terms ov reliability.

Anyways, this is nothing new to anyone here. Those 3/4" tie rods are insane.

Im still gonna buy the fancy ones, because they come with the full kit, but now theres that small pocket ov worry in the back ov my head...

Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: autoxcuda] #2242692
01/28/17 09:54 AM
01/28/17 09:54 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 208
Munich, Bavaria
D
docford Offline
enthusiast
docford  Offline
enthusiast
D

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 208
Munich, Bavaria
I need to cross-reference these MOPAR tie rod end numbers, as they need to be replaced both on my 1974 Petty Dodge and on my Group 2 Hemicuda (both cars are equiped with the Petty Enterprise front spindles).

They are 2535126 and 2535127

I'd guess that they are for a Dodge Truck.

Let me know if you have an idea about where to find them.

Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: NV69B7RR] #2242963
01/28/17 06:08 PM
01/28/17 06:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,322
Pikes Peak Country
T
TC@HP2 Offline
master
TC@HP2  Offline
master
T

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,322
Pikes Peak Country
Looking through my kit car catalog, its shows those both as P prefixed parts. P parts don't always show direct interchanges with regular production parts. I tried to find those numbers in a Hollander interchange and was unsuccessful. I would suggest just trying 3/4 ton truck parts, but I can't imagine those would be any easier to find in Germany. You always could try calling Petty's Garage directly and speaking with them about the interchange. They were key contributors to the Kit Car program on top of all their previous association with Chrysler. 00-1-336-498-3745

Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: NV69B7RR] #2242991
01/28/17 07:02 PM
01/28/17 07:02 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda Offline
About to go away
Supercuda  Offline
About to go away

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
I seem to remember one of the old Direct Connection chassis books giving some details on the tierods and other suspension parts.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: Pale_Roader] #2244388
01/30/17 11:06 PM
01/30/17 11:06 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 259
n.c.
G
geo. Offline
enthusiast
geo.  Offline
enthusiast
G

Joined: May 2015
Posts: 259
n.c.
Originally Posted By Pale_Roader
[quote] Bigger parts are almost always stronger, if that's needed. When it comes to deflection, actual axial deflections would be microscopic and of no consequence. If the sleeve 'bows out' it's toast because it introduces a bending stress in addition to the compressive stress, greatly increasing the likelyhood of failure.
If you want to go for the solid, billet, forged, heat treated, gold plated HD sleeves that's fine but it's long been my contention that the factory sleeves are a designed-in failure point and FAILURE MODE. Imagine you're flying down the road and come upon the pothole from hell and something is going to fail. If you snap off a rod end or stud on the idler or pitman your steering control is mostly or completely gone. Having a weak point made of a ductile material, like the tie rod sleeve is, you're going to get a badly toed-out situation instead of a front wheel doing whatever it wants.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Twocents.gif" alt="" />


THIS... i think is a very good point.

Know this is an old post, but I agree with this also.
Many years ago I read something by Hal Baer along the same lines. He cautioned that boxing the control arms and replacing the tie rod sleeves on a mustang made it much more likely to cause frame damage when bumping a curb, or hitting a pot-hole.
Now this was on a ford, so maybe not applicable grin

Last edited by geo.; 01/30/17 11:10 PM.
Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: geo.] #2244660
01/31/17 12:48 PM
01/31/17 12:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 21,967
Trumussia
J
jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
J

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 21,967
Trumussia
Might add to this ancient, but insightful thread, well respected member "AndyF" noted a measured reduction in deflection(?) with the larger TR's of 22%, however what is not mentioned, 22% of what, because if we are talking on cars with a measured say .125" toe in, +- 1/16", .002" reduction for example, is not something members here will ever need to be concerned with.


If you can't dazzle them with diamonds, don't waste your time, because nothing will
Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: jcc] #3054250
06/29/22 12:47 AM
06/29/22 12:47 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,287
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
I Live Here
Kern Dog  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,287
Granite Bay CA
It wasn't Andy that mentioned the 22% reduction in deflection, it was Rick Ehrenberg.

Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: Kern Dog] #3054317
06/29/22 09:26 AM
06/29/22 09:26 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 163
San Diego
J
JP8 Offline
member
JP8  Offline
member
J

Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 163
San Diego
Wow. So, every 5 years this thread gets brought back to life. I'm going to have to mark my calendar so in 2027 we can re-hash the 11/16 TRE debate. bump


Instagram : @5_points_racing
Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: JP8] #3054374
06/29/22 12:27 PM
06/29/22 12:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,213
Oregon
A
AndyF Offline
I Win
AndyF  Offline
I Win
A

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,213
Oregon
It is a classic mopar debate. Just like regular or high volume oil pumps. LH wheel studs or regular ones, Dana 60 vs Ford 9 inch, etc.

Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: AndyF] #3054499
06/29/22 07:45 PM
06/29/22 07:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,287
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
I Live Here
Kern Dog  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,287
Granite Bay CA
JCC seems to have disappeared from the whole forum.
I'll admit that he had a valid point.....where is the actual proof that these upgrades have any value?
Personally, I did weld up my K member and add gussets around the steering box mount. I learned that from Mopar Action magazine. I don't recall where I first read of boxing the lower control arms but I did that too. In the early 2000s, there were several Mopar magazines in print and they all seemed to suggest the 11/16" tie rod ends when doing a rebuild. I rebuilt mine in 2003 or thereabouts and although there is about 15,000 miles on the rebuild, I had one inner and one outer tie rod feel loose enough to warrant replacement.
I am going ahead with the bigger tie rod ends and solid adjusting sleeves from PST.

Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: Kern Dog] #3054886
07/01/22 09:12 AM
07/01/22 09:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,213
Oregon
A
AndyF Offline
I Win
AndyF  Offline
I Win
A

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,213
Oregon
I always thought the point I made early in this thread was the most valid reason to upgrade and that was cost. I'm not sure if this is still true, but for a long time the C body ends and adjusters were less expensive than the ABE parts. So it was actually cheaper to install the factory 11/16 parts than to replace the stock parts. If they were also stronger then double win.

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1