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Bronze gear wear #3054115
06/28/22 01:43 PM
06/28/22 01:43 PM
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Mopar493 Offline OP
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Hi, i have about 600 miles on my Mopar 499 cui with a Howard custom grind hydraulic roller cam, end play 0.008". I checked the intermediat shaft today and noticed some excessive wear, see added pictures, i also noticed some wear marks on top of the bushing to, see pic. The cam gear looks fine but the bronze gear have wear alot. What causes this? The bronze gear is a 440 source. I ordered a milodon bronze gear now and a new pioneer bushing.

20220628_193517.jpg20220628_193319.jpg20220628_193352.jpg
Re: Bronze gear wear [Re: Mopar493] #3054118
06/28/22 01:50 PM
06/28/22 01:50 PM
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Mopar493 Offline OP
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More pics

20220628_193419.jpg20220628_193419.jpg20220628_193122.jpg
Re: Bronze gear wear [Re: Mopar493] #3054148
06/28/22 03:35 PM
06/28/22 03:35 PM
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Mopar493 Offline OP
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I read in an Motortrend article that the first bronze gear on a new cam may wear faster due to it massage/deburr the cam gear. See added pic.

Screenshot_20220628-223147_Chrome.jpg
Re: Bronze gear wear [Re: Mopar493] #3054169
06/28/22 04:51 PM
06/28/22 04:51 PM
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Ontario, Canada
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Stanton Offline
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This topic pops up monthly !! Do a search, you'll find the reason they wear and how to prevent it. And the brand of gear and bushing have nothing to do with it!

Re: Bronze gear wear [Re: Mopar493] #3054262
06/29/22 04:26 AM
06/29/22 04:26 AM
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calrobb2000 Offline
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hi ,

roller cams in a street motor ae plain STUPID !

my street hemi has a hyd. roller cam , i did not build it , same issue .

you can buy a melonized treated metal gear about 200.00 i jut got one an have not intalled it yet .

wish it was just a flat tappet cam no hassels with correct oils .


how many records are u gona set on the street anyway !

Re: Bronze gear wear [Re: calrobb2000] #3054275
06/29/22 06:38 AM
06/29/22 06:38 AM
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Mopar493 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by calrobb2000

hi ,

roller cams in a street motor ae plain STUPID !

my street hemi has a hyd. roller cam , i did not build it , same issue .

you can buy a melonized treated metal gear about 200.00 i jut got one an have not intalled it yet .

wish it was just a flat tappet cam no hassels with correct oils .


how many records are u gona set on the street anyway !


The only issue i can see is just the bronze gear and that have been an issue for quite long time. Its amazing that this issue havent been sorted out yet, like a composite gear for Mopar, or a steel gear like for Ford. Its the melonized that is a alternative for Mopar but they say not to used with high volyme pump and not on used cam.

Re: Bronze gear wear [Re: calrobb2000] #3054293
06/29/22 08:16 AM
06/29/22 08:16 AM
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Wichita
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GY3 Offline
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Originally Posted by calrobb2000

hi ,

roller cams in a street motor ae plain STUPID !

my street hemi has a hyd. roller cam , i did not build it , same issue .

you can buy a melonized treated metal gear about 200.00 i jut got one an have not intalled it yet .

wish it was just a flat tappet cam no hassels with correct oils .


how many records are u gona set on the street anyway !


Hydraulic rollers on the street are AWESOME!

Zero issues when used with a melonized gear. 7,000 miles and lots of dragstrip passes.

Much better than having the issues with cams going flat (which led me down this path) like so many are having issues with!


'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.

Re: Bronze gear wear [Re: GY3] #3054310
06/29/22 08:59 AM
06/29/22 08:59 AM
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moparacer Offline
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Hey don't expect the Milodon to be any better. I had a 440 source in mine that was getting chewed pretty bad. I replaced it with a Milodon in the spring and just pulled it to inspect after 75 passes...

Doing the same thing.... hammer I also have a problem with getting the Milodon to drop in the right spot when I am timing it. It will go in some spots and others you cant get it to go....

Mine is wearing high on the gear due to the fact that the bushing surface is getting worn down I think. Always had this problem with this engine too.

Almost like the distributor is forcing it down when it is tightened, but I have play in the distributor shaft so don't know how that could happen. confused


67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119
68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152
414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
Re: Bronze gear wear [Re: GY3] #3054314
06/29/22 09:24 AM
06/29/22 09:24 AM
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Tulsa OK
Bad340fish Offline
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I have lots of street miles on bronze gears. I have worn some out but never destroyed one. I always try to run as thin of an oil as I can and still have good idle oil pressure and I know that helps keep the load off of the gear. My current motor will hot idle at 25-30PSI on 5W30 and runs down the road at 60PSI.

I think the gear in my car has 2-3 drag weeks on it combined with any other street driving I do. I haven't inspected it since 2019 but will probably do so before drag week this year.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
87 "Chrysler" Conquest
Re: Bronze gear wear [Re: Mopar493] #3054316
06/29/22 09:26 AM
06/29/22 09:26 AM
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Thumperdart Offline
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Had the same issues till someone suggested the Crane gear which has the hardest Rockwell (sp) hardness and now my timing is even rock steady from idle on up.....


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: Bronze gear wear [Re: Thumperdart] #3054323
06/29/22 09:35 AM
06/29/22 09:35 AM
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Ontario, Canada
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Stanton Offline
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There is a simple law of physics that causes the bronze to fail - its the fact that the two parts in contact are both bronze - similar metals. Putting a "dissimilar" metal between them eliminates the problem. It's the same reason they don't use a steel intermediate gear with a steel billet roller cam. They solved that problem using the bronze gear but apparently didn't consider the bushing it would be in contact with. Maybe they didn't count on rollers ever being used in high milage street use, who knows !!

As to the OP's question, you want a .030" thick Torrington washer. Obviously with a large enough hole for the shaft to fit through. You won't find the exact size because the shaft is an oddball .486 dia. but a washer with a 1/2" hole will work just fine. On some gears I've turned the underside down the thickness of the washer but I don't bother anymore.

Just keep in mind this fix only applies to the wear between the gear and bushing. If the gear teeth are chewed to crap you have other issues.

Re: Bronze gear wear [Re: Stanton] #3054334
06/29/22 10:44 AM
06/29/22 10:44 AM
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Mopar493 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Stanton
There is a simple law of physics that causes the bronze to fail - its the fact that the two parts in contact are both bronze - similar metals. Putting a "dissimilar" metal between them eliminates the problem. It's the same reason they don't use a steel intermediate gear with a steel billet roller cam. They solved that problem using the bronze gear but apparently didn't consider the bushing it would be in contact with. Maybe they didn't count on rollers ever being used in high milage street use, who knows !!

As to the OP's question, you want a .030" thick Torrington washer. Obviously with a large enough hole for the shaft to fit through. You won't find the exact size because the shaft is an oddball .486 dia. but a washer with a 1/2" hole will work just fine. On some gears I've turned the underside down the thickness of the washer but I don't bother anymore.

Just keep in mind this fix only applies to the wear between the gear and bushing. If the gear teeth are chewed to crap you have other issues.

Thanks for your answer!I wouldnt say Shewed up to crap but for sure it is some wear. What problem would that be? Cam end play is 0.008", i have a collar on the distributor shaft set to 0.010" to prevent up and down movement, all lifter wheels go on exact centers of the cam lobes, the intermediate shaft through the bushing have allmost no marks at at all and holding correct clearance, the cam thunnel was checked for straightness and honed to correct size and roundness and all bearings have 0.0023" clearance, so what else can you do? What would the other problem be? My intermediate shaft gear i have with my flat tappet before the roller for 4 year looks same new and also the gear of the cam, so its not any odd things with the engine block. Correct spring pressures for the cam and so on. Everything is within specs, its just this stupid bronze gear that seems to wear fast. Its my first gear so things maybe be better i dont know. I will looking for a torringon washer. And the melonized gear i dont know if its worth a shot, you can not drive high volyme pump, you can not use on a used cam and so on. The engine is really great its just this [censored] bronze gear.

Re: Bronze gear wear [Re: Stanton] #3054357
06/29/22 11:59 AM
06/29/22 11:59 AM
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This, I forgot to add that I split up the 3-piece Torrington bearing deal I ran before and just ran 1 stainless washer between the two and problem solved...


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: Bronze gear wear [Re: Thumperdart] #3054363
06/29/22 12:08 PM
06/29/22 12:08 PM
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Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah Offline
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I like the stainless washer idea!



Re: Bronze gear wear [Re: Bad340fish] #3054384
06/29/22 12:44 PM
06/29/22 12:44 PM
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Tulsa OK
Bad340fish Offline
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Originally Posted by Bad340fish
I have lots of street miles on bronze gears. I have worn some out but never destroyed one. I always try to run as thin of an oil as I can and still have good idle oil pressure and I know that helps keep the load off of the gear. My current motor will hot idle at 25-30PSI on 5W30 and runs down the road at 60PSI.

I think the gear in my car has 2-3 drag weeks on it combined with any other street driving I do. I haven't inspected it since 2019 but will probably do so before drag week this year.



I forgot to add I drilled as small as a hole as I possible could in the galley plug so it squirts directly onto the gear. I can't remember the size but it was as small of a bit as I could use without fear of breaking it in with my rock steady precision hand drill mill/rickety vice setup.

I do not know if that mod is possible on a big block.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
87 "Chrysler" Conquest
Re: Bronze gear wear [Re: calrobb2000] #3054415
06/29/22 01:51 PM
06/29/22 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by calrobb2000

hi ,
roller cams in a street motor ae plain STUPID !

Says you, I loved my last one (solid roller lifter) a lot, never beaten on the street, no one would race me grin that was a 400 stroker (505 C.I.) pump gas motor that made 727 HP at 6800 RPM on Oregon pump swill the last time I had that motor on a engine dyno boogie
AKA, it ran great and was easy to maintain by using all good parts in it to start with up scope


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Bronze gear wear [Re: Cab_Burge] #3054422
06/29/22 02:12 PM
06/29/22 02:12 PM
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Mopar493 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Originally Posted by calrobb2000

hi ,
roller cams in a street motor ae plain STUPID !

Says you, I loved my last one (solid roller lifter) a lot, never beaten on the street, no one would race me grin that was a 400 stroker (505 C.I.) pump gas motor that made 727 HP at 6800 RPM on Oregon pump swill the last time I had that motor on a engine dyno boogie
AKA, it ran great and was easy to maintain by using all good parts in it to start with up scope

Sounds great! I really like it to, responsive and make great power. Good parts you say, what distribution gear should i use? The engine is great all over and everything in spec, it just surpriced me that the bronze gear weared out so quickly, a 440source gear. I ordered a milodon gear now together with a new pioneer bushing to try with and planning to have a washer/shim between those two and see how that workes out.

Re: Bronze gear wear [Re: Cab_Burge] #3054539
06/29/22 10:42 PM
06/29/22 10:42 PM
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calrobb2000 Offline
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hi ,

yep mine runs fine on pump gas also , but you did hot say ho many miles you actualy drove it and i have also made passes at the track which i drive 43 miles 1 way race and drive home .


app 3500 miles per bronze i gear is not a trouble free street motor .

if the melonised gear does not cure this prob next winter that cam w[ll go in the trash and get replaced with a flat tappet ! 511 hemi

Re: Bronze gear wear [Re: calrobb2000] #3054564
06/30/22 12:50 AM
06/30/22 12:50 AM
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Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah Offline
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I was told to burnish the cam gear with a wire wheel prior to installation. The teeth are pretty sharp on some pf the cores and need to be dressed. If I was going to make an intermediate gear it would be either dlc/pvd coated or REM polished and cut out of 9310 steel.



Re: Bronze gear wear [Re: Jeremiah] #3054597
06/30/22 08:07 AM
06/30/22 08:07 AM
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North Dakota
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What I think gets lost in these 'discussions' is how do the Magnums get away with the roller camshafts? I don't know of anything special with the distributor drive gears in them?


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