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Re: Fancy ignition issues [Re: HardcoreB] #2988276
11/23/21 03:14 PM
11/23/21 03:14 PM
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Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda Offline OP
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Originally Posted by HardcoreB
Yeah, I had a similar experience I'll share FWIW. Being old school I also had analog ignition systems before. I put a used msd7 digital 7530 box in the car from a friends car when he upgraded to the grid system. MSD help is about worthless anymore, I liken it to any other major business. The instructional videos are poorly done and unprofessional. It took me a while to actually figure out how to change things but, to Tony's point we have to advance with the technology/ages. It's been working properly now but, I still bought a used back-up box from another local racer for cheap. I guess that's just prudent anymore? It's a shame that the prices have soared and the quality has plummeted.


I'd grab another 6530 if I could find one cheap enough. I don't think I'll be dropping $500 on an extra though. And yes, MSD's tech support is garbage. They'll tell you everything is wrong and the box is fine. laugh2

BTW...I looked at the HalTech stuff. $2k for an ignition system isn't in my budget, lol.


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: Fancy ignition issues [Re: n20mstr] #2988388
11/23/21 07:18 PM
11/23/21 07:18 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
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Originally Posted by n20mstr
Wes, im surprised at you! !


It WORKED! Lol! I said I'm about to........... laugh


"Any fool can know. The point is to understand"

- A. Einstein
Re: Fancy ignition issues [Re: EvilB1Dart] #2988607
11/24/21 10:53 AM
11/24/21 10:53 AM
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Marion, South Carolina [><]
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Daytona sensors doesn't seem to be very nitrous friendly. Another option off the table.

ICE has a system for nitrous cars. It will retard the timing up to 20 degrees, but only in 2° intervals. down


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: Fancy ignition issues [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2988610
11/24/21 11:07 AM
11/24/21 11:07 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,684
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Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda
Daytona sensors doesn't seem to be very nitrous friendly. Another option off the table.

ICE has a system for nitrous cars. It will retard the timing up to 20 degrees, but only in 2° intervals. down


used Holley HP and an LS coil set up......sell all your current MSD stuff and you nitrous controller to help fund it.


....BAD A$$ STREET CAR.....
Re: Fancy ignition issues [Re: n20mstr] #3044853
05/24/22 02:46 PM
05/24/22 02:46 PM
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Well, after trying to make it work...the 6530 (6al-2 programmable), I still have the same issue. After talking w/ MSD tech, they finally agree w/ me that the box itself has a problem. It only does it when it gets hot...not the car itself running hot, but push it outside in the heat of the day for a couple hours and it'll do it. I drove it on a cold day and the car runs perfect. Let the car sit outside on a hot day and then fire it up and it instantly has the 4500 rpm misfire/rev limit. So it's on the way back to MSD for another inspection.
In the mean time I have put all the old analog stuff back in the car (6AL, 8987 start/step retard, 2 step, etc.)


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: Fancy ignition issues [Re: an8sec70cuda] #3044862
05/24/22 03:37 PM
05/24/22 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda
Well, after trying to make it work...the 6530 (6al-2 programmable), I still have the same issue. After talking w/ MSD tech, they finally agree w/ me that the box itself has a problem. It only does it when it gets hot...not the car itself running hot, but push it outside in the heat of the day for a couple hours and it'll do it. I drove it on a cold day and the car runs perfect. Let the car sit outside on a hot day and then fire it up and it instantly has the 4500 rpm misfire/rev limit. So it's on the way back to MSD for another inspection.
In the mean time I have put all the old analog stuff back in the car (6AL, 8987 start/step retard, 2 step, etc.)


Heat can do funny things. One bad solder joint. To bad you did not monitor the actual box temperature when it acted up. Then you could tell MSD to heat soak it at that temperature for testing.

Last edited by NITROUSN; 05/24/22 03:37 PM.
Re: Fancy ignition issues [Re: an8sec70cuda] #3044863
05/24/22 03:41 PM
05/24/22 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda
Well, after trying to make it work...the 6530 (6al-2 programmable), I still have the same issue. After talking w/ MSD tech, they finally agree w/ me that the box itself has a problem. It only does it when it gets hot...not the car itself running hot, but push it outside in the heat of the day for a couple hours and it'll do it. I drove it on a cold day and the car runs perfect. Let the car sit outside on a hot day and then fire it up and it instantly has the 4500 rpm misfire/rev limit. So it's on the way back to MSD for another inspection.
In the mean time I have put all the old analog stuff back in the car (6AL, 8987 start/step retard, 2 step, etc.)


That sucks!

Still getting by with the old analog 6AL here, too.


'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.

Re: Fancy ignition issues [Re: an8sec70cuda] #3044867
05/24/22 03:51 PM
05/24/22 03:51 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,395
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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Interesting the digital box has some of the same issues the analogue ones do. I went thru a couple, and it was always when cranking over with a low or dead battery that killed them or the coil, or both. I have not had one of their digital ones, but switched to a digital pertronix box and have had great luck with it.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pnx-510

Problem is, it won't do what you need....If it where me, I would switch to a Holley efi box, and just use what you need from it. Leave the carb, but hook up the NOS to it, and the Ignition box of choice, and it will do what you need....Although, I am not sure if you can program the ignition curve without a laptop, it would be the best way to go I think. Plus it data logs and has can bus...really nice setup with one of their dashes too.


'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: Fancy ignition issues [Re: Dragula] #3045275
05/26/22 08:22 AM
05/26/22 08:22 AM
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Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda Offline OP
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The analog stuff either works or is completely dead...at least that's been my experience w/ the 6AL boxes.
I've had high speed misfires w/ the older Digital 6 Plus boxes and the Digital Multi Retard boxes, but otherwise they ran fine.

At this point, I'm all about keeping it simple. If the 6530 comes back, I'll give it another shot. If it still has issues, it's coming out of the car for good and the analog stuff goes back in...for good.
I'm far from a "serious" racer. I mostly test and tune and run the occasional street car/KOS shootout.
I have zero desire to plot a timing curve. All I want to do is pull timing out when the nitrous is activated and have a couple of rev limiters. That's it. I have all the control that I want w/ the nitrous progressive.
I don't want an MSD Grid or anything resembling Holley EFI on this car. I'm not setting the world on fire here w/ my two ton sled.
If this thing would still do a burnout on 20° of timing, I'd just manually pull the timing out, lol.


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: Fancy ignition issues [Re: an8sec70cuda] #3045280
05/26/22 08:53 AM
05/26/22 08:53 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,395
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda
The analog stuff either works or is completely dead...at least that's been my experience w/ the 6AL boxes.
I've had high speed misfires w/ the older Digital 6 Plus boxes and the Digital Multi Retard boxes, but otherwise they ran fine.

At this point, I'm all about keeping it simple. If the 6530 comes back, I'll give it another shot. If it still has issues, it's coming out of the car for good and the analog stuff goes back in...for good.
I'm far from a "serious" racer. I mostly test and tune and run the occasional street car/KOS shootout.
I have zero desire to plot a timing curve. All I want to do is pull timing out when the nitrous is activated and have a couple of rev limiters. That's it. I have all the control that I want w/ the nitrous progressive.
I don't want an MSD Grid or anything resembling Holley EFI on this car. I'm not setting the world on fire here w/ my two ton sled.
If this thing would still do a burnout on 20° of timing, I'd just manually pull the timing out, lol.


The Holley would do it that way...Once a timing curve was built or chosen. They have premade ones you can chose from, and select one of those and adjust from there or build your own. Activating the NOS would pull a set amount that you decide. Talk with Rich, at Fastman EFI...He has done some cool stuff over the years.

You never touch the base timing table once its set. I would do it that way with a 7AL box...I like how well your car performs on NOS, its amazing how fast it is on those little tires. And with the array of sensors, you can log everything you could possibly want to watch. Not everyone uses those as an EFI box, some use them to control everything and keep the carb. Or go all in....

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/terminator_x/terminator_x_stealth_4500/


Last edited by Dragula; 05/26/22 09:04 AM.

'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: Fancy ignition issues [Re: an8sec70cuda] #3045283
05/26/22 09:30 AM
05/26/22 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda

If this thing would still do a burnout on 20° of timing, I'd just manually pull the timing out, lol.


Ha! That's why I have a dial! Do the burnout and then retard. Old school but it works!


'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.

Re: Fancy ignition issues [Re: GY3] #3045291
05/26/22 09:45 AM
05/26/22 09:45 AM
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Marion, South Carolina [><]
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Originally Posted by GY3
Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda

If this thing would still do a burnout on 20° of timing, I'd just manually pull the timing out, lol.


Ha! That's why I have a dial! Do the burnout and then retard. Old school but it works!

How much do you pull out and what are you using exactly to do it?


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: Fancy ignition issues [Re: an8sec70cuda] #3045297
05/26/22 10:08 AM
05/26/22 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda
Originally Posted by GY3
Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda

If this thing would still do a burnout on 20° of timing, I'd just manually pull the timing out, lol.


Ha! That's why I have a dial! Do the burnout and then retard. Old school but it works!

How much do you pull out and what are you using exactly to do it?


MSD 8680 and typically 6 degrees with the 250 shot.


'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.

Re: Fancy ignition issues [Re: GY3] #3045299
05/26/22 10:11 AM
05/26/22 10:11 AM
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Marion, South Carolina [><]
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Cool, I'll keep that in mind. up
For now I have the old 6Al, 2 step, and the 8987 start/step in the car. Never used the 8987 before, so we'll see how it does.

msd 8987.jpg

CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: Fancy ignition issues [Re: an8sec70cuda] #3046714
05/31/22 12:13 PM
05/31/22 12:13 PM
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Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda Offline OP
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So far, so good w/ the old analog stuff. The new little retard box pulls timing out like it should and it's accurate. Drives around fine, but haven't been to the track yet. luck


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: Fancy ignition issues [Re: an8sec70cuda] #3046963
06/01/22 06:39 AM
06/01/22 06:39 AM
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Sounds good Chip, hope it pans out up

Re: Fancy ignition issues [Re: an8sec70cuda] #3046989
06/01/22 09:43 AM
06/01/22 09:43 AM
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As you can read n my "lash" thread, I may be zeroing in on my Digital-6 being bad/erratic. I have been running it since '05, and suspect it has been the source of my 10 years of huge spark scatter. I do know, however, that the brand new MSD retard module I was running with my 6AL digital in the '71 Challenger fried the ignition box. Running great, added the module, and instantly lost the ignition. Wouldn't work even after I took it back out. Cooked the box. I had to cut it out of the system to finish Rocky Mountain Race Week 2020. I had it in there for nitrous, and ended up having to put the spare box in and just manually retard the distributor.

Last edited by 67Charger; 06/01/22 03:11 PM.

11.33 @ 118.46 on motor
10.75 @ 125.35 w/ a little spray
Now, high Speed Open Road Racing - Silver State Classic Challenge, Nevada Open Road Challenge, Big Bend Open Road Race
Rocky Mountain Race Week 2020, 2022 2.0, Sick Week 2023
Re: Fancy ignition issues [Re: 67Charger] #3047003
06/01/22 10:38 AM
06/01/22 10:38 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
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Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda Offline OP
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Originally Posted by 67Charger
As you can read n my "lash" thread, I may be zeroing in on my Digital-6 being bad/erratic. I have been running it since '05, and suspect it has been the source of my 10 years of huge spark scatter. I do know, however, that the brand new MSD retard module I was running with my 6AL digital fried the ignition box. Running great, added the module, and instantly lost the ignition. Wouldn't work even after I took it back out. Cooked the box. I had to cut it out of the system to finish Rocky Mountain Race Week 2020. I had it in there for nitrous, and ended up having to put the spare box in and just manually retard the distributor.

These digital boxes are something else. My luck has obviously not been good w/ them. Everyone running a fast car w/ an MSD Grid has a spare Grid system in the trailer. Quality is non existent anymore.


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: Fancy ignition issues [Re: an8sec70cuda] #3053835
06/27/22 02:32 PM
06/27/22 02:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,369
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda Offline OP
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So MSD called me last week to inform me that they cannot duplicate my issue w/ this box. They said they ran it on a "hot box" at 4k rpm for 8 hours and it did fine. I said yep b/c it's fine up until 4500 rpm.
Then he said they put it in the freezer overnight and back on the "hot box" the next day for 8 more hours at 6k rpm w/ no problem.
He said the "hot box" brings the temp up to engine temp. He explained no further.
I said this is interesting b/c I'm confident it's in the box and even one of their tech guys agreed w/ me a few weeks ago when I called to get the RMA number.
He said that's all they can do. shruggy


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: Fancy ignition issues [Re: an8sec70cuda] #3053840
06/27/22 02:54 PM
06/27/22 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda
So MSD called me last week to inform me that they cannot duplicate my issue w/ this box. They said they ran it on a "hot box" at 4k rpm for 8 hours and it did fine. I said yep b/c it's fine up until 4500 rpm.
Then he said they put it in the freezer overnight and back on the "hot box" the next day for 8 more hours at 6k rpm w/ no problem.
He said the "hot box" brings the temp up to engine temp. He explained no further.
I said this is interesting b/c I'm confident it's in the box and even one of their tech guys agreed w/ me a few weeks ago when I called to get the RMA number.
He said that's all they can do. shruggy


Really not surprising. The one we had issues with wouldn't spark at low rpm. Spin it by hand out of the car at higher rpm and it would spark. Kinda hard to start when they are like that.

Last edited by GY3; 06/27/22 02:58 PM.

'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.

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