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Follow up - Just installed an FBO box on my Hemi #3052910
06/24/22 10:41 AM
06/24/22 10:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
Kowal Offline OP
mopar
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For what it is worth for those looking which way to go on ignition systems. I just installed an FBO box on my Hemi Charger. Two test runs in, working very well. I always had a bit of discontent with the set up I had in that sitting in traffic, with a 248 @50 duration cam and an automatic, the car was never totally comfortable. I swear I could feel the plugs fouling until I could get in the clear, where it would then run great. I was running a vintage Mopar Chrome box.

So two runs in, it seems to be idling stronger with more “purpose”, a bit cleaner also. Acceleration is good, a noticeable improvement when punching it off a 35 mph cruise. Starts quickly. I am timed at 17.5 degrees at 900 idle in neutral, 35 degrees all in mechanically...this is where I was the chrome box as well. I am running a standard vacuum advance. Factory tach (repro).

More to come. For those wondering how I did the ballast, I bought one of the new ones that don’t have any filling on the back, this let me easily remove and replace the resistance unit with a 10 ga wire that I crimped then soldered in place. I then filled the back with some white JB Weld to keep the whole thing stable. I was also very deliberate to make sure the box was well grounded (I have it hidden behind the passenger headlight assembly).

So I will see if this works out. The plugs will tell the story in a few weeks (and will it be reliable of course). If this doesn’t work as a long term solution then I think I might try the Ignitor III with the multi-spark…though I worry a bit how that will work with the factory tach, and I would miss my full advance timing light (as I hear these are often problems with multi-spark).

DK


DD598525-049D-433A-9EB3-940D6B44F9DE.jpeg
Last edited by Kowal; 10/19/22 05:44 AM.

'69 Hemi Charger 500, ‘70 U code Challenger R/T
(These and a bunch others at www.dkowal426.com)

P.J. O'Rouke: "The old car ran perfectly, right up until it didn't."
Re: Just installed an FBO box on my Hemi [Re: Kowal] #3052967
06/24/22 12:50 PM
06/24/22 12:50 PM
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SomeCarGuy Offline
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I’m not familiar with the fbo setup. Sounds like it’s doing what you want. I used to run petronix 2 on my cars. This time I had a distributor built by a mopar specialist since I wanted to keep my factory one to swap back in for looks or as a spare. The guy strongly encouraged me to run just the 1st gen petronix as he felt the number 2 had a high fail rate of about 1 in 4 either out of the box or soon thereafter. He also felt the 3 version had more to go wrong.

The first gen has done well on my stock 440.


I want my fair share
Re: Just installed an FBO box on my Hemi [Re: SomeCarGuy] #3053029
06/24/22 03:26 PM
06/24/22 03:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
Kowal Offline OP
mopar
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Here is the FBO website. They sell through Mancini’s and direct plus a few other places. From a wiring standpoint, a direct replacement to a Mopar box but without the ballast.

https://4secondsflat.com/Ignition.html

Thanks for your comment SomeCarGuy, interesting.


'69 Hemi Charger 500, ‘70 U code Challenger R/T
(These and a bunch others at www.dkowal426.com)

P.J. O'Rouke: "The old car ran perfectly, right up until it didn't."
Re: Just installed an FBO box on my Hemi [Re: Kowal] #3053044
06/24/22 03:48 PM
06/24/22 03:48 PM
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Stuttgart, Arkansas
rickseeman Offline
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Beautiful engine bay


2011 Drag Pak Challenger
Re: Just installed an FBO box on my Hemi [Re: rickseeman] #3053060
06/24/22 04:32 PM
06/24/22 04:32 PM
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Sniper Offline
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Lot of hype and BS on that website

I'll pass.

Re: Just installed an FBO box on my Hemi [Re: Sniper] #3053064
06/24/22 04:43 PM
06/24/22 04:43 PM
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in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Guitar Jones Offline
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in a cattle trailer down by th...
Originally Posted by Sniper
Lot of hype and BS on that website

I'll pass.

I'm sticking with MSD. That chrome box was never intended to be used on a street car. That is beautiful engine compartment though. None of my junk ever looked that good.


"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"


'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon!
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
Re: Just installed an FBO box on my Hemi [Re: Guitar Jones] #3053093
06/24/22 06:12 PM
06/24/22 06:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,645
So Near, Yet So Far
topside Offline
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He did a vac advance distributor for me for the 512" car, and it worked great, but I haven't tried his box.
For the hot rods & race cars, my default has been a rebuilt & curved MP dist, the old-style MSD6AL, and the F150 epoxy coil.
I had a RevNator box in one car and swapping it for a good OEM box made no difference.
That's a website - and/or a conversation - that was full of hype but no real tech.

I'll be interested to see how the FBO box works out.
And yessir, that's a proper engine compartment up

Re: Just installed an FBO box on my Hemi [Re: rickseeman] #3053099
06/24/22 06:20 PM
06/24/22 06:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,713
Central Florida
larrymopar360 Offline
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Originally Posted by rickseeman
Beautiful engine bay
iagree


Facts are stubborn things.
Re: Just installed an FBO box on my Hemi [Re: larrymopar360] #3053130
06/24/22 07:54 PM
06/24/22 07:54 PM
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lewtot184 Offline
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i've tried a couple of the fbo kits. the first one started out great but over a short period of time i started to experience rough running and a difficult hot start. i went back to my LX101 box and the engine smoothed out. i never figured out exactly what the issue was but i always wondered if shooting 14.5-15 volts constantly at the pertronix coil that came with the kit was the issue for a street car,.... confused. i now run 10 volts to the same coil and the engine is smoother. i put another kit on my other car and the box LED kept blinking which meant something wasn't right. don at fbo thought it was the wiring harness to the box. i changed the harness but never put the fbo box back on to test it. i'm not slamming the fbo products because i've had good luck with their stuff before. for me i might have wasted $400 on two kits. ignition gadgets, no matter who makes them (and i've blown a lot of money on them), just aren't a good substitute for a good tune-up.

Last edited by lewtot184; 06/24/22 07:55 PM.
Re: Just installed an FBO box on my Hemi [Re: Sniper] #3053141
06/24/22 08:18 PM
06/24/22 08:18 PM
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Omaha Ne
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TJP Offline
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Originally Posted by Sniper
Lot of hype and BS on that website

I'll pass.


iagree I can't remember which cars but I had two come through the shop with FBO distributors that were way out of whack.
Will also say sometimes the "power of suggestion" can cloud ones judgement wink shruggy twocents

Re: Just installed an FBO box on my Hemi [Re: TJP] #3053153
06/24/22 09:06 PM
06/24/22 09:06 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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Originally Posted by TJP
Originally Posted by Sniper
Lot of hype and BS on that website

I'll pass.


iagree I can't remember which cars but I had two come through the shop with FBO distributors that were way out of whack.
Will also say sometimes the "power of suggestion" can cloud ones judgement wink shruggy twocents

I'm surprised that he is still in business, I thought he had died several years back work
I know he screw several local Oregon racers around here on bad parts and not standing behind the parts he has made with the FBO logo on them down


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Just installed an FBO box on my Hemi [Re: Guitar Jones] #3053180
06/24/22 11:33 PM
06/24/22 11:33 PM
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Posts: 5,435
So Cal
Sinitro Offline
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Originally Posted by Guitar Jones
Originally Posted by Sniper
Lot of hype and BS on that website

I'll pass.

I'm sticking with MSD. That chrome box was never intended to be used on a street car. That is beautiful engine compartment though. None of my junk ever looked that good.


As quoted from the 2009 Mopar Performance catalog..
"D. Chrome Electronic Control Unit
For a hotter spark, use this general high-performance control unit (up through 8,000 rpm).
1 P4120534 ECU, Chrome, Hemi/ Big Block/ Small Block.."


The chrome box was a stepup over the orange box intended for general purpose street use, but it was the gold box noted only for Race Only..
"E. Super Gold Electronic Control Unit
The culmination of years of high-performance ignition system development. Designed to outperform any ignition unit previously offered to Mopar racers, it will handle the high current demand by the high-performance coil (P3690560), while keeping dwell variation to less than 1° from 1,000 to 10,000 rpm. Dwell is set for maximum spark output at low or high engine speeds. The Super Gold ECU provides outstanding performance from idle to 12,000 rpm.
1 P4120600 ECU, Super Gold, Race Only, Hemi/ Big Block/ Small.."


Just my $0.02... wink

Re: Just installed an FBO box on my Hemi [Re: Sinitro] #3053189
06/25/22 01:21 AM
06/25/22 01:21 AM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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The original Mopar chrome box with the blue heat sink was race only and required a special coil. Those work great up
Mopar went bankrupt between then and now, some of their vendors have had very low quality control after bankruptcy and we, us customers, found out about some of those parts the hard way rant down


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Just installed an FBO box on my Hemi [Re: Cab_Burge] #3053210
06/25/22 08:12 AM
06/25/22 08:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
Kowal Offline OP
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Kowal  Offline OP
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Thanks for the engine bay compliments.

I also had tried one of the blue JEGS ECU boxes. So I went chrome (when built), blue JEGS, chrome and now FBO.

On the Charger the JEGS blue box was “uninspiring”, maybe a better idle but less overall feel in performance. On my Challenger I still have one of the blue boxes on it, but the Challenger is bone stock other than the electronic ignition set up and it runs very well.

I admit the new generations of “mopar like” ECU boxes leave me cold. I took the JEGS blue box that I had on my Charger apart and was amazed at the use of sand before the application of the potting material, the not very robust links to the connector and the completely nonfunctional pretend transistor on the front of the box (so it has the Mopar look).

This whole sequence led me to try the FBO which I had thought about for some time. I should note that this has been a pretty slow progression on my part…I have had the Charger for 10 years and the car has always run well, I am just trying to make it a bit better. I have a couple of plugs that foul sooner than they should, and after trying hotter plugs, different plug brands, lots of carb tuning with only modest improvement, I decided to start messing with the ignition. I have a SUN distributor machine, so I also set up my own distributors and try different curves and use the FBO limiter plate for the length of the advance curve..that plate works really well.

Last edited by Kowal; 06/28/22 05:24 PM.

'69 Hemi Charger 500, ‘70 U code Challenger R/T
(These and a bunch others at www.dkowal426.com)

P.J. O'Rouke: "The old car ran perfectly, right up until it didn't."
Re: Just installed an FBO box on my Hemi [Re: Kowal] #3053234
06/25/22 10:46 AM
06/25/22 10:46 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,149
Park Forest, IL
slantzilla Offline
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When I was racing a box stock Slant Duster I tried swapping ignition boxes at the track. I tested a brand new orange box against a new chrome box and my tried and true stock box from NAPA. The orange box ran the same as a stock box, and the chrome box slowed the car down. No one could tell my why.

How's that for useless trivia?


"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
Re: Just installed an FBO box on my Hemi [Re: slantzilla] #3053271
06/25/22 01:10 PM
06/25/22 01:10 PM
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TJP Offline
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Originally Posted by slantzilla
When I was racing a box stock Slant Duster I tried swapping ignition boxes at the track. I tested a brand new orange box against a new chrome box and my tried and true stock box from NAPA. The orange box ran the same as a stock box, and the chrome box slowed the car down. No one could tell my why.

How's that for useless trivia?

I've run quality parts store boxes for years w/o a problem Also the orange mopar box that came with the conversion kit's ~30 years back. Still working fine. mst of this applies to street driven 7 limited track use at ~ 6K rpm limits.
I also have a couple of Chrome boxes in the ignition stash pile that are likely from the late 70's. Have to get them out and test them. No names on them as I recall, I think one has a red H/sink the other a blue shruggy

Re: Just installed an FBO box on my Hemi [Re: TJP] #3053426
06/26/22 08:07 AM
06/26/22 08:07 AM
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dragon slayer Offline
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I think these discussions with out specifics of the coil and ballast values are not very useful. Also, the health of the motor (wires, plugs, compression, mixture quality). As RPM increases the actual charging time available reduces quickly before the next firing. By the time you're at 6000 rpm, there is only 2.5 msec of charge time between firings (even less as there is a plug spark duration too), and coil stored energy is significantly less. It is no longer about the box, but everything else.

Yes there are box differences that matter, but just because several different folks use the same box, doesn't mean they will all see the same results in my opinion.

Re: Just installed an FBO box on my Hemi [Re: dragon slayer] #3053431
06/26/22 09:07 AM
06/26/22 09:07 AM
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lewtot184 Offline
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the FBO system deletes the ballast resistor with a jumper wire so that takes that out of the discussion. the FBO requires 12 volts to the coil and is supplied with a Pertronix coil. with the ballast gone the coil will now get whatever voltage the charging system provides; at least mine did. now there's 14-15 volts to the coil. i check the dwell on boxes and usually it will be somewhere between 35-40+ degrees; depending on the box. the FBO box i used had 15 degrees dwell,.... confused. so, i called Don at FBO and asked about that and he explained it to me and the truth is most of the explanation blew over the top of my head; basically didn't understand it all. i got to thinking that a mopar kit used a 1.25 ohm ballast (vs none with FBO) and will run 6-7 volts at the coil with twice the dwell (orange box is around 36 degrees). is this a case where less dwell time is needed to compensate for twice the voltage? is the spark voltage the same to the plugs; just done differently? i don't know but another one of those more questions than answers thing. anyhow, the soft rev limiter worked well which is what i needed but the driving situation stifled me. maybe i'll re-visit this at a later time.

Re: Just installed an FBO box on my Hemi [Re: dragon slayer] #3053461
06/26/22 11:30 AM
06/26/22 11:30 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
Kowal Offline OP
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OK. To answer Dragon Slayer’s questions.

What is in there now is the FBO, no ballast and the 40111 epoxy coil which is 40K and 1.5 ohm primary.

What was in there was either the blue JEGS box or a real Mopar chrome box. Coil was the same. Ballast was 1/2 ohm.

Motor is a ‘68 Hemi built for the restoration in 2010 by a guy in Florida, Ed Hillman. Stock compression, cam is the Mopar P4349257 hydraulic which is 248 duration at 50 degrees. Lift is 524 and 507. I do not know how the cam was installed (spec is 104 cl). I run the distributor at 18 degree +/- initial and 35 degree total. I have had no detonation.

When I got the car 10 years ago after it was just built it did detonate a bit at part throttle, running at 25 degrees initial and a 36 advance, with what was a very fast curve. The car was running a rebuilt distributor with a Pertronix Ignitor I, that distributor had very inconsistent spark and advance and I replaced it with a Mopar electronic that I rebuilt using my Sun machine. Spark is very clean and consistent coming out of the distributor on the Sun machine, advance curve is now more of a gentle hump towards full advance. I do run vacuum advance. The carbs are set up with stock jets. In the rear carb I am running the stock 7258 rod on the passenger and 6855 on the driver instead of the stock 6954 rod. In front I have 7057 passenger instead of 6859 and 6857 instead of 6859. Yellow front springs, orange back. I run a mix of Sunoco 110 which a station near me sells and some pump 92 when convenience and an empty tank dictate. Engine idle vacuum is weak, at around 10 inches though steady.

In the first few years that I had the car it fouled all the plugs quickly and regularly. Over the years I improved that over a series of progressions to where #1 fouls, #2 is pretty dirty and the rest of the plugs look great with a nice tan color. As you can see, I might be running the car a bit lean as I became obsessed with the plugs. I get about a 100 rpm or a bit more drop from 900 when put it in gear. Torque converter is a 3000 rpm stall. 4.10 rear.

So I tossed the Pertronix I based on all the plugs fouling and the distributor failure, went with the Chrome box (probably should have tried orange first), then tried the JEGS box since why not though that seemed to make the idle worse. Back to chrome and now the FBO which I need more seat time with to see how it is doing…seems well after only two drives.

Carbs are set up at idle using Dragon Slayer’s advise in previous posts…front carb butterflies closed and using the back carb as primary. I did take the front carb a little too lean on the springs and rods and had a lean backfire show up, so quickly went richer to where I am now.

My goal is to improve its manners when caught in traffic, but more importantly get better life out of the plugs. I run Champion 12’s, tried Autolite but that actually made things worse. I do not run the washer on the plugs, counting on the tubes to keep the seal. I do change the tubes as needed. Overall, the car runs well, pulls very strong like a Hemi should, is clearly more powerful than my stock 440. I have debated just swapping the cam to something less, but tuning seems easier and I do like the way it runs (and sounds). I don’t want to go to MSD, all the wiring is pretty much stock now, jumpering the ballast was a big step from stock for me.

Last edited by Kowal; 06/28/22 05:28 PM.

'69 Hemi Charger 500, ‘70 U code Challenger R/T
(These and a bunch others at www.dkowal426.com)

P.J. O'Rouke: "The old car ran perfectly, right up until it didn't."
Re: Just installed an FBO box on my Hemi [Re: Kowal] #3053470
06/26/22 11:56 AM
06/26/22 11:56 AM
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central il.
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second 70 Offline
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I run mine at 34 locked out with MSD. Starts easy and helps it to run clean at idle and low speed. A modern grid where you could get it to run in the 40's cruzing would work even better as long as you could trust it to retard when you open throttle.

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