Torsion Bar Upgrade - Ride quality?
#3040986
05/09/22 02:36 PM
05/09/22 02:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,232 Chicago, IL
PLUM_72
OP
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OP
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Chicago, IL
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Looking to do a torsion bar upgrade. I have what ever came with a 72 340 challenger, .86 maybe? Thought about using the Hotchkis 1.10 bars. I am concerned about going to big and having too stiff/hard of a ride. I've read a lot of stuff on the forum about bars and some say go BIG. Then control with a good shock. I'm concerned going to 1.10 up from what I have at .86. Really considering the PST 1.03 bar seems to be a reasonable upgrade. My car is mainly a weekend cruiser. No plans at this time to drag or road race. Its just time to go through the front end as the last time it was done was in early 1990's. Not many miles since then, just a lot of time passed by.
Just wanting to get other opinions on ride quality with the bigger bars.
1972 Dodge Challenger
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Re: Torsion Bar Upgrade - Ride quality?
[Re: AndyF]
#3041073
05/09/22 08:47 PM
05/09/22 08:47 PM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,227 nowhere
Sniper
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Andy hits on an important thing, Shocks need to be capable of handling the spring rate. Torsion bar and swaybar rates.
One of the reasons my 65 Cuda had KYB's was because at the time I built it, early 90's, torsion bar nd sway bar availability was limited, short of paying thru the nose for custom bars from someone like Halibrand. Find data on shock rates was even trickier, I ended up calling KYB and talking to an engineer who wanted to know why I wanted that data (trade secret?) once I explained what i was doing he got all helpful. I was able to put together a swaybar, torsion bar, shock package that all worked together.
If there were shock dynos back then I didn't know about them and probably couldn't afford one, much less buying a bunch of shocks to test them. We do live in a bit of a golden age for this stuff right now, or maybe at the end of it.
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Re: Torsion Bar Upgrade - Ride quality?
[Re: PLUM_72]
#3041227
05/10/22 02:25 PM
05/10/22 02:25 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 801 central CT
cudazappa
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Another problem with larger torsion bars is that the chassis may not be able to handle the larger bars. Essentially the unibody becomes a spring. If subframe connectors, torque boxes, etc have been added, larger bars become more effective. Also, larger bars can allow for lowering without bottoming. The larger the bar, the lower you can run the car. The final factor is tires. 15" tires have more give than 17" as the tire is also acting like a spring on the surface of the road. My Challenger used to run 1" torsion bars and Bilstein shocks, and I hated the ride. Hindsight being 20/20 I think I had it lowered too much. Now I have 1.18" bars and QA1 single adjustable shocks. Its a very firm ride and with 15" wheels but not unpleasant (but very easy to overpower the tires). It works well for autocross with 17" wheels. Torsion bars and shocks are part of a complete package. 1.03 like AndyF suggested is a good all around diameter. But the caveat is, over the counter parts house shocks, won't work with them, either.
1971 Challenger
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Re: Torsion Bar Upgrade - Ride quality?
[Re: PLUM_72]
#3041240
05/10/22 03:17 PM
05/10/22 03:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442 NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
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If you're only concerned for a little more stiffness, weekend cruiser (non-competition autocross, etc.), small TBs such as 1.03 and 1.10 will give it to you. BUT, you'll soon realize that you could've / should've gone stiffer... such as ~1.18. Better shocks are needed... and the choices of brands are getting wider. Adjustable shocks are preferred... double-adjustable even best preferred (and worth the extra expense). Or else, Bilsteins are an excellent simple non-adjustable option.
The tires you use are a major factor... 60 series, 50, 40-35-30 sidewalls.... the shorter you go the firmer the ride as there simply becomes less sidewall to absorb bumps. The tire PSI also is a factor... try different setups until you find your comfort zone.
I've commented many times, don't be afraid of larger TBs. As soon as you install something larger than the factory size, you'll say Wow!... and then later... that you'd probably like to go larger again.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Torsion Bar Upgrade - Ride quality?
[Re: cudazappa]
#3041429
05/11/22 10:27 AM
05/11/22 10:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,232 Chicago, IL
PLUM_72
OP
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OP
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Thanks for the replies so far. In reading past posts in other threads, there were a few people commenting about one-inch bars, give or take, and poor ride quality. Figured those were due to a bad, non-clocked T-bar or the use of cheap shocks. I'm surprised the one-inch bar and the Bilstein shocks had a poor ride. It could be the low ride, not enough shock travel or hitting bump stops. With the Bilsteins not being adjustable, perhaps they are not a match with that size bar? Premium shocks seem to be a necessity what ever the choice, maybe adjustable shocks are mandatory. I am also surprised at the bigger bar, better ride comments too. Those circumstances have to be due to shock change at the same time the bar was changes and going with a premium adjustable shock over what ever was used prior.
The roads here in the Chicago area generally suck. Its the freeze/thaw cycles coupled with the salt and such used during the winter. My daily driver is a 2013 Challenger. The firm (but not overly harsh) ride there is what I would like to duplicate in the 72.
1972 Dodge Challenger
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Re: Torsion Bar Upgrade - Ride quality?
[Re: PLUM_72]
#3051059
06/16/22 06:13 PM
06/16/22 06:13 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,161 Los Angeles, CA
JF_Moparts
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Los Angeles, CA
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Looking to do a torsion bar upgrade. I have what ever came with a 72 340 challenger, .86 maybe? Thought about using the Hotchkis 1.10 bars. I am concerned about going to big and having too stiff/hard of a ride. I've read a lot of stuff on the forum about bars and some say go BIG. Then control with a good shock. I'm concerned going to 1.10 up from what I have at .86. Really considering the PST 1.03 bar seems to be a reasonable upgrade. My car is mainly a weekend cruiser. No plans at this time to drag or road race. Its just time to go through the front end as the last time it was done was in early 1990's. Not many miles since then, just a lot of time passed by.
Just wanting to get other opinions on ride quality with the bigger bars.
Are you still running the 340 small block? I have a similar setup and I found that a spring rate in the low 200's (205, 210 lbs/inch) works well. For a big block or Hemi I'd go with 240-250 lbs/inch. I'm in the process of getting larger bars for my 440 Challenger which is still using factory bars.
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Re: Torsion Bar Upgrade - Ride quality?
[Re: JF_Moparts]
#3051281
06/17/22 01:47 PM
06/17/22 01:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,232 Chicago, IL
PLUM_72
OP
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OP
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Thanks for the reply! I still have the 340 and am looking more at 1.03 T-bars. They have a 210lb/in rate. Not really buying the bigger is better thing for a street car. I'm in the process of gathering front end parts and the bars will likely be the last purchase as I still am unsure. The premium shock recommendation, I absolutely buy into for ride quality.
1972 Dodge Challenger
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Re: Torsion Bar Upgrade - Ride quality?
[Re: PLUM_72]
#3051293
06/17/22 02:43 PM
06/17/22 02:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,995 Oregon
AndyF
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I Win
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Something in the 1.030 or 1.060 range with Koni shocks will provide a newer car type of ride. It will be firm but not harsh. Should ride like a Honda Accord or a Toyota Camry. It won't handle like a BMW or Porsche, but it will be a huge improvement from the 1970s Detroit slush bucket handling, especially if you pair it with a big anti-sway bar.
Last edited by AndyF; 06/17/22 02:44 PM.
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Re: Torsion Bar Upgrade - Ride quality?
[Re: PLUM_72]
#3051322
06/17/22 04:14 PM
06/17/22 04:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,405 Michigan
MarkZ
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Thanks for the reply! I still have the 340 and am looking more at 1.03 T-bars. They have a 210lb/in rate. Not really buying the bigger is better thing for a street car. I'm in the process of gathering front end parts and the bars will likely be the last purchase as I still am unsure. The premium shock recommendation, I absolutely buy into for ride quality. I didn't chime in before because I don't have a basis of comparison to the earlier style torsion bars. Now that you posted #rate I can. I put a set of 300# bars on my Fifth Avenue with non-adjustable Bilstein shocks. Car already had police front and rear sways with a set of homemade frame ties. The ride was great and made the car corner extremely flat. This was with 15" BFG Radials on the car. The ride went to absolute pot with 18" tires. I know it's completely subjective, but I wouldn't hesitate to go as high as 300# with good shocks and tires with a good amount of sidewall.
1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
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Re: Torsion Bar Upgrade - Ride quality?
[Re: MarkZ]
#3051338
06/17/22 05:23 PM
06/17/22 05:23 PM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,227 nowhere
Sniper
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Thanks for the reply! I still have the 340 and am looking more at 1.03 T-bars. They have a 210lb/in rate. Not really buying the bigger is better thing for a street car. I'm in the process of gathering front end parts and the bars will likely be the last purchase as I still am unsure. The premium shock recommendation, I absolutely buy into for ride quality. I didn't chime in before because I don't have a basis of comparison to the earlier style torsion bars. Now that you posted #rate I can. I put a set of 300# bars on my Fifth Avenue with non-adjustable Bilstein shocks. Car already had police front and rear sways with a set of homemade frame ties. The ride was great and made the car corner extremely flat. This was with 15" BFG Radials on the car. The ride went to absolute pot with 18" tires. I know it's completely subjective, but I wouldn't hesitate to go as high as 300# with good shocks and tires with a good amount of sidewall. One thing that is rarely talked about is the tires. Shorter sidewall tires increase the effective rate. Many don;t thing about the sidewall height's effect on spring rates.
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Re: Torsion Bar Upgrade - Ride quality?
[Re: Sniper]
#3052016
06/20/22 02:52 PM
06/20/22 02:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442 NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
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Sniper -- I speak repeatedly with advice of the choice of tire size with their sidewall height having effect on ride harshness, as well as tire PSI.... see my response in previous discussion above.
The OP will ultimately have to decide on how he likes his ride and make the adjustments -- pros and cons.... compromises.
Just changing away from the factory stock setup will make major differences... and from that point... further changes can be made.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Torsion Bar Upgrade - Ride quality?
[Re: roadrunninMark]
#3052651
06/23/22 10:21 AM
06/23/22 10:21 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,995 Oregon
AndyF
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I Win
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Oregon
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AndyF, to get the Porsche/bmw handling ability with a small block and aluminum heads - some more weight reduction too, what bar size would be ideal, 1.15? Which shocks? I put hemi springs in the back already. Will have the bigger anti sway in front and not sure on size for back yet. I want to make my e body street car handle as well as mentioned. I am going to add the hot Chris style frame rail extenders but that is pretty much it for body mods. Thanks. The mods you are making will improve the handling but you'll never achieve Porsche level. The car doesn't have the correct chassis or suspension design and there isn't much you can do about it. But you can build a car that looks cool and handles fairly well without breaking the bank.
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Re: Torsion Bar Upgrade - Ride quality?
[Re: AndyF]
#3052709
06/23/22 01:22 PM
06/23/22 01:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,405 Michigan
MarkZ
Worthy
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Worthy
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Michigan
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AndyF, to get the Porsche/bmw handling ability with a small block and aluminum heads - some more weight reduction too, what bar size would be ideal, 1.15? Which shocks? I put hemi springs in the back already. Will have the bigger anti sway in front and not sure on size for back yet. I want to make my e body street car handle as well as mentioned. I am going to add the hot Chris style frame rail extenders but that is pretty much it for body mods. Thanks. The mods you are making will improve the handling but you'll never achieve Porsche level. The car doesn't have the correct chassis or suspension design and there isn't much you can do about it. But you can build a car that looks cool and handles fairly well without breaking the bank. If his ride is 100% street driven would you ever even be able to drive it hard enough to notice the difference (after aforementioned upgrades)?
1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
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Re: Torsion Bar Upgrade - Ride quality?
[Re: PLUM_72]
#3061997
07/24/22 02:52 AM
07/24/22 02:52 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 732 eastern,Ky
70RT Charger
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Thanks for the reply! I still have the 340 and am looking more at 1.03 T-bars. They have a 210lb/in rate. Not really buying the bigger is better thing for a street car. I'm in the process of gathering front end parts and the bars will likely be the last purchase as I still am unsure. The premium shock recommendation, I absolutely buy into for ride quality. and you are exactly right. Bigger is not better unless you’re drag or track racer. Would be nice if you could ride in one those bigger is better cars lol. My buddy went full Hotchkis, level 3 cartool for a cruiser and hates it. Whatever you decide to go with run tunable shocks. I went with 1 1/8 SB, 1.03 TB, Q-A1 Strut Rods, 11/16 tie rod ends, Qa-1 LCA and Adjustable SPC UCA,s with Adjustable Viking shocks and it rides awesome for an old car.
Last edited by 70RT Charger; 07/24/22 02:53 AM.
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