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Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: AndyF] #3048034
06/05/22 01:27 PM
06/05/22 01:27 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Granite Bay CA
I am going through all of it. New .040 pistons with a 24 cc dish to lower compression while gaining quench. I had .075 Cometic head gaskets in since 2014 and while it did achieve the lower compression I needed, I always knew that it was the least desirable way to get there. Back then I wasn't willing to pull the engine to do it this way.
New oil pump, rings, bearings, zero deck the block and a set of Fel Pro head gaskets. ( .039" compressed) I will end up at 9.8 to 1, approx .03 to 1 less than I was but with real quench this time.
Thanks for all the input, guys. I do appreciate it.

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: Kern Dog] #3048243
06/06/22 11:05 AM
06/06/22 11:05 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,060
Atlanta, GA
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mgoblue9798 Offline
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Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted by Kern Dog
I am going through all of it. New .040 pistons with a 24 cc dish to lower compression while gaining quench. I had .075 Cometic head gaskets in since 2014 and while it did achieve the lower compression I needed, I always knew that it was the least desirable way to get there. Back then I wasn't willing to pull the engine to do it this way.
New oil pump, rings, bearings, zero deck the block and a set of Fel Pro head gaskets. ( .039" compressed) I will end up at 9.8 to 1, approx .03 to 1 less than I was but with real quench this time.
Thanks for all the input, guys. I do appreciate it.


You no doubt are making the right choice going through that engine. No sense making a big problem even worse trying to patch it. I am curious to hear your opinion on the new combo v/s old once completed.

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: DirectConnection] #3048314
06/06/22 02:32 PM
06/06/22 02:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,704
MICHIGAN
DynoDave Offline
master
DynoDave  Offline
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MICHIGAN
Originally Posted by DirectConnection
i like your homemade engine trans cart


Same here. And I have some of those kicking around. work


DynoDave
Walter P. Chrysler Club - Great Lakes Region
Member # 12304
1970 Plymouth Duster
1972 Dodge Charger Rallye
https://wichargerguy.proboards.com/
1977 Chrysler Cordoba
Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: DynoDave] #3048324
06/06/22 03:00 PM
06/06/22 03:00 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Granite Bay CA
Total cost was next to zero. I had the scrap steel out back, I had 5 of those wheel carts that some guy gave me. The only real out of pocket costs are the welding supplies that I'll need to replenish someday.

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: Kern Dog] #3049449
06/10/22 04:25 PM
06/10/22 04:25 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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The engine is at the machine shop for bore-hone. I bought new pistons from 440 Source in .040 with a 24 cc dish. I'm having the block decked to arrive at a .005 deck clearance. This will give me a 9.7 to 1 ratio with quench.
I'm going to paint the engine with a spray gun using urethane enamel in GoManGo orange.
For the cam....I'm still undecided but currently contemplating the use of the Lunati solid flat tappet that I ran in the engine for a couple of years. It made great power but idled a bit rough and had low idle vacuum. I'm switching to a manual brake 15/16" master cylinder so idle vacuum won't be a concern.
The K member, steering and other components will get freshened up while they are out.

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: Kern Dog] #3050147
06/13/22 10:48 AM
06/13/22 10:48 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,060
Atlanta, GA
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mgoblue9798 Offline
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Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted by Kern Dog
The engine is at the machine shop for bore-hone. I bought new pistons from 440 Source in .040 with a 24 cc dish. I'm having the block decked to arrive at a .005 deck clearance. This will give me a 9.7 to 1 ratio with quench.
I'm going to paint the engine with a spray gun using urethane enamel in GoManGo orange.
For the cam....I'm still undecided but currently contemplating the use of the Lunati solid flat tappet that I ran in the engine for a couple of years. It made great power but idled a bit rough and had low idle vacuum. I'm switching to a manual brake 15/16" master cylinder so idle vacuum won't be a concern.
The K member, steering and other components will get freshened up while they are out.


The new motor having proper quench will make a significant difference in bottom end torque. Will help with cam manners some.

If using a urethane you want to use the correct hardener as well, and be sure to use a mask. Isocyanates are nothing to fool around with. If you don't have a paint booth with a fan to remove the overspray then paint it outside.

Last edited by mgoblue9798; 06/13/22 10:52 AM.
Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: mgoblue9798] #3050285
06/13/22 07:06 PM
06/13/22 07:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Thanks. I do use a respirator when I paint cars.
I didn't know that quench had such an effect on torque. This engine was never lacking but hey....more is better, right?

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: Kern Dog] #3051057
06/16/22 06:08 PM
06/16/22 06:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,161
Los Angeles, CA
JF_Moparts Offline
super stock
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Los Angeles, CA
For those interested, I will be selling a pretty much brand new Borgeson Box in the next month or so. I had a unit in my Plymouth, less than 1,000 miles, and I've decided to go with Steer & Gear. I'm using the Bergman coupler.

Jim

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: JF_Moparts] #3051104
06/16/22 09:02 PM
06/16/22 09:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Kern Dog  Offline OP
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Granite Bay CA
That is like dating a fashion model, then dumping her to date a Wal Mart cashier.

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: Kern Dog] #3051295
06/17/22 02:46 PM
06/17/22 02:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,945
Oregon
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AndyF Offline
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Oregon
I have a buddy with a '70 Challenger who hates the factory PS. He has been driving new cars for 30 years and hates the "stick in a bucket of mud" feel of the factory PS on his Challenger. I told him about the Borgeson and he just ordered a complete kit yesterday.

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: Kern Dog] #3061998
07/24/22 02:52 AM
07/24/22 02:52 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,545
Seattle, WA
3
375inStroke Offline
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Seattle, WA
Originally Posted by Kern Dog

Beforehand, I had a Firm Feel Stage 3 chuck with Fast Ratio Pitman and Idler arms. 2 3/4 turns lock to lock. Steering was very stiff once you got past the slop. The on center slop was similar to what a stock box has but since the steering effort was so high, there was a stark difference in feel between the slop and when the tires actually started to steer. It felt like manual steering with a slight assist.
This was annoying and NOT confidence inspiring. Driving on curvy roads meant crossing over the slop at every turn. Straight line driving meant frequent corrections to maintain a line.


This is the best, most informative explanation on this subject I've ever read. I've got a cop box in the R/T, and with my alignment, it feels great to me. I hate how new cars never want to track straight, like there's too much stiffness on center, so I have to keep correcting, but I don't drive many new cars. You talked me into getting a Borgeson for the other Charger.

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: 375inStroke] #3062031
07/24/22 10:24 AM
07/24/22 10:24 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Granite Bay CA
No charge from me. It is just one of the many services that I offer for free.

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: Kern Dog] #3062256
07/25/22 12:38 AM
07/25/22 12:38 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,945
Oregon
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AndyF Offline
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Oregon
Originally Posted by Kern Dog
No charge from me. It is just one of the many services that I offer for free.


And we appreciate it. Well except for one really cranky dude in your neck of the woods who doesn't seem to appreciate anything from anybody. But everyone else appreciates it.

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: AndyF] #3062508
07/25/22 05:12 PM
07/25/22 05:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Thanks..I was just being silly.
I enjoy reporting on my mistakes and successes with these projects. I often jump in and learn new things along the way that help. These forums allow us to share what we know and to learn from others.

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: Kern Dog] #3095927
11/21/22 07:21 AM
11/21/22 07:21 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Granite Bay CA
I understand that this is the handling forum but I'm also one that appreciates when a thread is updated.
The engine has been in for about 5 weeks and has been running great. I've been struggling with the steering and brakes though. I installed a hydroboost system and had a lot of trouble getting it to function. I went through several power steering pumps. They kept failing. I got fed up and pulled the hydroboost setup and switched to a manual master cylinder. The steering pump was replaced again but in doing so, I found that the inline cooler had a kinked line. This made me wonder if that was responsible for the pumps failing along with the hydroboost never working.
As it stands now, the steering works perfectly but the brakes are not right. I have the Dr Diff 13" Cobra setup in the front and his 11.7" setup out back and a 15/16" manual master cylinder. Stopping at 20 mph or slower is great but over that, the pedal just isn't transmitting enough force to adequately slow the car down. It is clear that this car needs some manner of power assist.
I can reinstall the vacuum booster but this cam I'm using only makes 7" of idle vacuum. I have a good vacuum pump that I could use to bridge the gap.
I can also take another stab at the hydroboost setup. Maybe the kink in the return line caused the HB unit to not function properly.
Good news though...The car idles better than I recall. It sounds good, it runs strong. The car seems quieter going down the road compared to before. Fewer rattles, less road noise too. I made so many small changes, I don't know where the credit belongs. New motor mounts, new tie rod ends, upgraded sway bar end links and tight fasteners on everything that I pulled and reinstalled. Either my hearing is going or this car feels like it really improved during this project!

751 R.JPG727 R.JPG8100 H.jpg
Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: Kern Dog] #3096013
11/21/22 12:56 PM
11/21/22 12:56 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,237
north of coder
moparx Offline
"Butt Crack Bob"
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north of coder
your car looks fantastic ! up
as to your brakes, what pedal ratio do you have ?
beer

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: Kern Dog] #3096022
11/21/22 01:21 PM
11/21/22 01:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,945
Oregon
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AndyF Offline
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Wow, you've had more than your share of teething problems with the new parts. The brake setup that you have should work okay with a manual master cylinder. If you want to debug it you might start by verifying the brake line pressure at both ports on the master cylinder. Verify that the rear port is feeding the front brakes. You could have a bad prop valve so bypass the prop valve and any other valves in the system. Another way to tackle the debug is to verify brake line pressure at each wheel. That test will show you a kinked line or a stuck prop valve or something like that. A super cheap test is to just put some marks on the rotors with a felt pen and see if all four brakes are working. What you describe sounds like either the fronts or the rears are not working which would point me towards a bad check valve or a bad prop valve or a kinked line or something like that.

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: moparx] #3096218
11/22/22 12:49 AM
11/22/22 12:49 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Granite Bay CA
Originally Posted by moparx
your car looks fantastic ! up
as to your brakes, what pedal ratio do you have ?
beer


First, thank you for the kind words.

By measuring them length from the center of the pedal pad to the hinge pin sleeve then dividing it by the distance between the pushrod hole and hinge pin, I get a pedal ratio of 8.13 to 1.
I've read pedal ratio numbers quoted as being 4 to 1 for manual and 2 to 1 for power which confuses me. How and where are they measuring to arrive at those numbers?

The measurement from the hinge pivot at the top to the center of the brake pedal pad is about 12 1/8". The center to center from the hinge pin to the pushrod hole is 1 3/4" stock, I drilled above the stock hole and it now sits at 1 1/2".

880 R.JPG881 R.jpg
Last edited by Kern Dog; 11/22/22 12:58 AM.
Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: AndyF] #3096220
11/22/22 12:56 AM
11/22/22 12:56 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Originally Posted by AndyF
Wow, you've had more than your share of teething problems with the new parts. The brake setup that you have should work okay with a manual master cylinder. If you want to debug it you might start by verifying the brake line pressure at both ports on the master cylinder. Verify that the rear port is feeding the front brakes. You could have a bad prop valve so bypass the prop valve and any other valves in the system. Another way to tackle the debug is to verify brake line pressure at each wheel. That test will show you a kinked line or a stuck prop valve or something like that. A super cheap test is to just put some marks on the rotors with a felt pen and see if all four brakes are working. What you describe sounds like either the fronts or the rears are not working which would point me towards a bad check valve or a bad prop valve or a kinked line or something like that.


The pedal effort is still too high for my liking. Today I started the change back to the power booster and vacuum pump. The pump makes 22" of vacuum and it worked great before.
I have wondered if the rear brakes are even working. I have a drum-drum distribution block in the car and the MC lines are oriented correctly. I have considered just running the brake lines from the MC to a T for the fronts and just directly to the rears with no distribution block but that block makes it convenient to tie them all together.
Can I gut the warning light feature from the distribution block and still use it or would it bleed pressure together for front and rear?
I have not tried verifying line pressure. How is that done?

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: Kern Dog] #3096316
11/22/22 01:54 PM
11/22/22 01:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,237
north of coder
moparx Offline
"Butt Crack Bob"
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north of coder
to verify line pressure, you need some fittings to tie into your brake lines and at all four wheels, plus a 2000lb pressure gauge.
as Andy said, start at the master cylinder ports and work toward each wheel, checking before and after each junction [block] along the way.
beer

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