Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
440 6 Pack will not start #3041344
05/10/22 10:25 PM
05/10/22 10:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 518
Minnesota
R
RROD Offline OP
mopar
RROD  Offline OP
mopar
R

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 518
Minnesota
Helping a club member with fresh rebuilt 6 pack 440. This is a restoration project. Engine has been prepped for initial break in run. All fluids added. Engine at TDC on number #1 cylinder. Timing mark on zero witness hole of dampener. Distributor rotor pointing at cap terminal which is now #1. Install plug wires starting with cap terminal now marked as #1 in cc’s with the firing order 18436572. Engine will not start. Fuel up to sight window of fuel bowl. Rotating distributor helps a little (had a pop through center carb). Need help. Everything seems set to start. I did check voltage with wires at ballast. Wires on either end were hot all the time. Should ignition #2 wire be hot (full voltage) only during the crank position)? Using orange box from summit. Noticed the voltage regulator was warm during attempted start. Is that normal? Also wire connection coming out of steering column was warm to the touch.

Re: 440 6 Pack will not start [Re: RROD] #3041354
05/10/22 11:19 PM
05/10/22 11:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,264
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,264
Bend,OR USA
Bring the #1 piston up to top dead center exactly on the firing stroke and then advance the distributor between 1/10 to 1/8 turn, maybe even as much as 1/4 turn so it will start. scope wrench Good luck up
No motor will start with the spark hitting the spark plugs at or past TDC tsk
I normally will bring the dampener up so the TDC mark on it is at 15 BTDC on the timing tab and then pull the distributor cap so I can see the reluctr and the magnetic pick up and move the dirstibutor so it is almost lined upperfectly with each other so it fires the coil around 15 BTDC up scope


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 440 6 Pack will not start [Re: RROD] #3041673
05/11/22 10:43 PM
05/11/22 10:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,373
Someplace you aren't
S
SomeCarGuy Offline
master
SomeCarGuy  Offline
master
S

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,373
Someplace you aren't
Make sure the ecu has a good ground. Also sounds like you are 180 degrees out.


I want my fair share
Re: 440 6 Pack will not start [Re: SomeCarGuy] #3041692
05/11/22 11:54 PM
05/11/22 11:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 592
California
BigDaddy440 Offline
mopar
BigDaddy440  Offline
mopar

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 592
California
Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy
M...sounds like you are 180 degrees out.


I agree...

Keep in mind that the piston comes to TDC twice before the spark plug fires. You need to confirm you're on the compression stroke before installing the distributor. It's the most common error and may or may not be your issue of course.

You can go old school and disconnect the coil wire, and pull the number one plug, put your thumb over the plug hole and turn the engine over (with the starter slowly) until your thumb is pushed off by air. That's the compression stroke. Then adjust the crank position to TDC on the balancer which should be very close and reinstall distributor.

When I'm building engines I keep track of which valves are open on the compression stroke at TDC, that way I can confirm I'm installing the distributor correctly with little hassle.

Last edited by BigDaddy440; 05/12/22 12:08 AM.

1969 A12 Roadrunner
1970 Plymouth Cuda
1968 Dodge Dart
Re: 440 6 Pack will not start [Re: RROD] #3041736
05/12/22 09:21 AM
05/12/22 09:21 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 309
Iowa
R
ratroaster Offline
enthusiast
ratroaster  Offline
enthusiast
R

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 309
Iowa
Originally Posted by RROD
Helping a club member with fresh rebuilt 6 pack 440. This is a restoration project. Engine has been prepped for initial break in run. All fluids added. Engine at TDC on number #1 cylinder. Timing mark on zero witness hole of dampener. Distributor rotor pointing at cap terminal which is now #1. Install plug wires starting with cap terminal now marked as #1 in cc’s with the firing order 18436572. Engine will not start. Fuel up to sight window of fuel bowl. Rotating distributor helps a little (had a pop through center carb). Need help. Everything seems set to start. I did check voltage with wires at ballast. Wires on either end were hot all the time. Should ignition #2 wire be hot (full voltage) only during the crank position)? Using orange box from summit. Noticed the voltage regulator was warm during attempted start. Is that normal? Also wire connection coming out of steering column was warm to the touch.


Sounds like you are 180 deg out on the distributor. Make sure you are on the compression stroke like others have said. Also pull the dipstick and smell for gas. If you flooded the cylinders with gas when trying to start it, change the oil or you may have breakin and oiling problems.

Re: 440 6 Pack will not start [Re: RROD] #3041743
05/12/22 10:11 AM
05/12/22 10:11 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,187
West Coast, USA
jbc426 Offline
master
jbc426  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,187
West Coast, USA
"I did check voltage with wires at ballast. Wires on either end were hot all the time. Should ignition #2 wire be hot (full voltage) only during the crank position)?"

Mopar uses Start 1 & Start 2 on cars of this era. Start 1 is hot when the ignition switch is in the run position and that 12v's passes through the ballast resistor, which drops the running voltage down around 7 volts range. Start 2 bypasses the ballast resistor and provides a full 12v's for quicker hot and cold starts. Once the spring switch is released at the start switch, the car runs on the ballast resistor voltage.

When I was hooking up my Hotwire Auto fuel injection Hot Rod Harness, I had to splice the two feeds from Start 1 & Start 2 together because the voltage would drop to zero for the split second it took to switch from Start 1 to Start 2, and that would mess up the ECU and the motor would not run. until both were spliced together. I believe both were hot when the key was on & in the start position, but Start 2 is disconnected beyond the switch when the key is returned to the run position..


1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
Re: 440 6 Pack will not start [Re: jbc426] #3041787
05/12/22 01:08 PM
05/12/22 01:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,373
Someplace you aren't
S
SomeCarGuy Offline
master
SomeCarGuy  Offline
master
S

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,373
Someplace you aren't
You can bar over to tdc and take out distributor and look at the drive slot to see if it’s on compression stroke or not. If it’s 180 out the slot will be ever so slightly turned from being straight across. Turn over to tdc mark again and you should see the line be straight across.


I want my fair share
Re: 440 6 Pack will not start [Re: SomeCarGuy] #3041796
05/12/22 02:06 PM
05/12/22 02:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,216
Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda Offline
master
GomangoCuda  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,216
Moved to N.E. Tennessee
Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy
You can bar over to tdc and take out distributor and look at the drive slot to see if it’s on compression stroke or not. If it’s 180 out the slot will be ever so slightly turned from being straight across. Turn over to tdc mark again and you should see the line be straight across.

haha I need to hear the logic behind this.

Just do the thumb over #1 plug hole as mentioned in previous answers. You can't possibly get it wrong,


In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
Re: 440 6 Pack will not start [Re: SomeCarGuy] #3041799
05/12/22 02:26 PM
05/12/22 02:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,459
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Online boogie
Too Many Posts
Pacnorthcuda  Online Boogie
Too Many Posts

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,459
Kirkland, Washington
Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy
You can bar over to tdc and take out distributor and look at the drive slot to see if it’s on compression stroke or not. If it’s 180 out the slot will be ever so slightly turned from being straight across. Turn over to tdc mark again and you should see the line be straight across.


What?

Re: 440 6 Pack will not start [Re: GomangoCuda] #3041812
05/12/22 03:41 PM
05/12/22 03:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,373
Someplace you aren't
S
SomeCarGuy Offline
master
SomeCarGuy  Offline
master
S

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,373
Someplace you aren't
Originally Posted by GomangoCuda
Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy
You can bar over to tdc and take out distributor and look at the drive slot to see if it’s on compression stroke or not. If it’s 180 out the slot will be ever so slightly turned from being straight across. Turn over to tdc mark again and you should see the line be straight across.

haha I need to hear the logic behind this.

Just do the thumb over #1 plug hole as mentioned in previous answers. You can't possibly get it wrong,


The factory did it that way. When you build the engine, you drop the shaft in with the engine at tdc compression stroke. Anytime you put in a distributor after that, the tdc mark will get you where you need to go without any fuss. Simply rotate to tdc, look at slot. If straight across looking down the hole, you are at tdc of firing stroke. If 180 out, it will be slightly off from straight across. Once you see it both ways, you will never forget it.

This also creates a situation where the vacuum can sits where it needs to be and the plug wires route easily, because number one will be where it should be.

See what you learned today? Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.


I want my fair share
Re: 440 6 Pack will not start [Re: SomeCarGuy] #3041899
05/12/22 11:11 PM
05/12/22 11:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,216
Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda Offline
master
GomangoCuda  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,216
Moved to N.E. Tennessee
Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy
Originally Posted by GomangoCuda
Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy
You can bar over to tdc and take out distributor and look at the drive slot to see if it’s on compression stroke or not. If it’s 180 out the slot will be ever so slightly turned from being straight across. Turn over to tdc mark again and you should see the line be straight across.

haha I need to hear the logic behind this.

Just do the thumb over #1 plug hole as mentioned in previous answers. You can't possibly get it wrong,


The factory did it that way. When you build the engine, you drop the shaft in with the engine at tdc compression stroke. Anytime you put in a distributor after that, the tdc mark will get you where you need to go without any fuss. Simply rotate to tdc, look at slot. If straight across looking down the hole, you are at tdc of firing stroke. If 180 out, it will be slightly off from straight across. Once you see it both ways, you will never forget it.

This also creates a situation where the vacuum can sits where it needs to be and the plug wires route easily, because number one will be where it should be.

See what you learned today? Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.



rolling-on-the-floor-laughing.gif
Last edited by GomangoCuda; 05/12/22 11:18 PM.

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
Re: 440 6 Pack will not start [Re: GomangoCuda] #3041922
05/13/22 12:22 AM
05/13/22 12:22 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,537
Topeka Kansas
K
ksj Offline
master
ksj  Offline
master
K

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,537
Topeka Kansas
Had a Chevy buddy help me after a cam replacement and he had distributor duty. Wouldnt fire but got the "Pop" told him we were 180 out.Said hed bet me twenty bucks it wasnt. Easiest 20 Ive ever made.Also told him that where I had the vacuum advance port pointed the timing would be spot on.That was another 20 in my pocket.

Re: 440 6 Pack will not start [Re: SomeCarGuy] #3042093
05/13/22 09:04 PM
05/13/22 09:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,000
Freeport IL USA
P
poorboy Offline
master
poorboy  Offline
master
P

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,000
Freeport IL USA
Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy
Originally Posted by GomangoCuda
Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy
You can bar over to tdc and take out distributor and look at the drive slot to see if it’s on compression stroke or not. If it’s 180 out the slot will be ever so slightly turned from being straight across. Turn over to tdc mark again and you should see the line be straight across.

haha I need to hear the logic behind this.

Just do the thumb over #1 plug hole as mentioned in previous answers. You can't possibly get it wrong,


The factory did it that way. When you build the engine, you drop the shaft in with the engine at tdc compression stroke. Anytime you put in a distributor after that, the tdc mark will get you where you need to go without any fuss. Simply rotate to tdc, look at slot. If straight across looking down the hole, you are at tdc of firing stroke. If 180 out, it will be slightly off from straight across. Once you see it both ways, you will never forget it.

This also creates a situation where the vacuum can sits where it needs to be and the plug wires route easily, because number one will be where it should be.

See what you learned today? Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.


That actually works, as long as the person that installed the dist drive put it in the correct place. If you every had one someone had taken the dist drive out of to run the oil pump, then just put the drive back in any way they choose, trying to get #1 on compression using just the dist drive slot won't work. The dist drive can be dropped in at any of the drive gear teeth, and will drop into the oil pump with a slight crank turn (it only has to match up with the hex drive in the oil pump). When someone is not concerned where the slot on the drive points, and was willing to move the wires on the cap to line up with the rotor when pointing at a plug wire terminal when #1 is on compression, will sure mess up determining #1 compression by the direction the dist slot faces. You better have a backup plan.

Bringing #1 up on compression with your finger covering the #1 plug hole works every time, as long as the guy doesn't crank the motor over past tdc when it blows his finger off the plug hole and then turns it to the next tdc. Been there too. Probably 1/2 of the people I've helped with no starts was getting #1 on compression and getting the firing order correct from there.

Pull # 1 plug. Put your finger over the hole. Bump the motor over a little at a time until the pressure in the cylinder starts to lift your finger off the hole. Turn the crank the very short distance to line up the timing marks on 0 at TDC (The guy that said a motor won't start and run a 0 degrees TDC is full of crap! Might not run its best, but will definitely run). with the timing marks set at 0 degrees TDC (top Dead Center), lift the cap to see where the rotor is pointing, it should be pointing towards one of the plug wire terminals in the cap (which one doesn't really matter as far as the motor running, but extreme running has higher requirements). At this point, if the distributor is loose and turns freely, you need to turn it so the rotor is pointing directly at a plug terminal, and any vacuumed canister can be moved in both directions about a 1/2" without bumping into something, and tighten the distributor down so it doesn't move without effort. If it is still tightened down and the rotor is pointing at a plug terminal, don't worry about it right now. The terminal where the rotor is pointing will be the place where the number 1 plug wire needs to go. Mark that spot on the distributor so you can see your mark with the cap on.

At this point there are 4 things you need to know. 1) Which direction the rotor turns. If your not sure, have someone crank the motor with the starter and watch which direction it turns. 2) The distributor cap only fits one way on the distributor. There is a notch in the cap that fits over a step in the top surface of the distributor ( or it could be a pin, or just the way the cap is held onto the dist). Be sure the cap fits down flat against the top of the distributor and doesn't turn. 3) The firing order of the motor. That would be the way the plug wires are plugged into the cap, and to which plugs they go to. 4) which cylinders are what number. It may sound dumb to some, but different motors count the cylinders differently. You need to know which cylinder number a plug fills, in order to have the spark arrive at the correct cylinder at the correct time. You need to know which plug is in # 2 cylinder, and which plug is in # 4 cylinder and so on with each cylinder you have.

Now you are ready to put the plug wires in the correct firing order. Lets say your firing order is 1, 8, 4, 3, 6, 5, 7, 2. You know where #1 wire connects on the cap, and you know where # 1 plug is. Put #1 wire in its place. You know which direction the rotor turns, so you know where the wire for the next cylinder to fire goes on the cap, and you know which plug is in the #8 cylinder. Put # 8 wire in its place. The process is repeated with each plug wire. Move from one side of the motor to the other to continue around the cap putting each wire on its proper plug. Might sound dumb, most just want to stay on the same side and hook each wires from one side at a time. There are two plug wires on each side that are next to each other on the motor and next to each other in the cap. Would you like to know how often those two sets of wires gets crossed? You get a miss and an occasional backfire! Wire each plug wire from start to finish before starting on the next one.

Once the motor starts and runs, you adjust the timing for best motor operation of your motor. They are all different, the timing numbers in the books are starting points, do not assume they are the it all and be all. Adjust to what your motor wants.

At least now, the spark (if you have one) should be getting to the correct plug at the correct time that cylinder is on compression. Then all you need is the correct amount of gas that actually burns.

They don't teach this stuff in school anymore, they assume everyone knows it. Here it is for those of you that missed the class.

This time you have gotten real world experiences. See what you learned today? up Gene

Re: 440 6 Pack will not start [Re: poorboy] #3042253
05/14/22 12:56 PM
05/14/22 12:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,311
Omaha Ne
T
TJP Offline
I Live Here
TJP  Offline
I Live Here
T

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,311
Omaha Ne
Well written up

Re: 440 6 Pack will not start [Re: TJP] #3042285
05/14/22 03:14 PM
05/14/22 03:14 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 15,956
north of coder
moparx Online content
"Butt Crack Bob"
moparx  Online Content
"Butt Crack Bob"

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 15,956
north of coder
follow what Gene wrote, and you can't go wrong. bow
beer

Re: 440 6 Pack will not start [Re: moparx] #3042332
05/14/22 06:02 PM
05/14/22 06:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 935
Chicago
PurpleBeeper Offline
super stock
PurpleBeeper  Offline
super stock

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 935
Chicago
As already mentioned..... did you remember that the big block distributors turn counter clockwise? Firing order is the same way


70 Roadrunner convt. street car 440+6, NOS, 4-spd, SS springs '96 Mustang GT convt. street car '04 4.6 SOHC, NOS, auto, lowered "Officer, that button is for short on-ramps"
Re: 440 6 Pack will not start [Re: PurpleBeeper] #3042390
05/14/22 09:47 PM
05/14/22 09:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 518
Minnesota
R
RROD Offline OP
mopar
RROD  Offline OP
mopar
R

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 518
Minnesota
Thanks for all the information. I may have an ignition switch problem. The connector from the ignition switch harness to the main harness is warm and the amp gauge shows a current draw.

Re: 440 6 Pack will not start [Re: RROD] #3042444
05/15/22 07:25 AM
05/15/22 07:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,064
VA
D
dragon slayer Offline
super stock
dragon slayer  Offline
super stock
D

Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,064
VA
I would say this as additive. Before installing distributor rotate it by hand in the correct direction with ignition on an someone holding #1 towards engine ground. Make sure you have a good spark. This ensures ECU, wiring, coil, distributor is working and producing spark.
The service manual also tells you where the vacuum cannister should point. Or know in advance where it should point for the clearance with your engine. This points the rotor at #1 terminal on the cap, if you have done the above-mentioned items correctly. Some engines have little room for distributor movement without hitting stuff. Yes, you can just move wires a terminal, but that still doesn't solve the issue of timing adjustment.
The last item is you can set the engine at whatever initial you want lets say 10. Rotate until Timing mark on balancer is 10 BTDC. For points with a voltmeter rotate the distributor until the point just open. You are now firing #1 at "ABOUT" 10deg. For ecu align reluctor point to be on the coil magnet. Again you will be firing at about 10deg BTDC.


Cab, you know the 68-69 Hemi had 0 Initial timing from the factory right? I think there was even other engine that used a degree or 2 ATDC from the factory in the emission years.

Re: 440 6 Pack will not start [Re: RROD] #3042486
05/15/22 12:06 PM
05/15/22 12:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,311
Omaha Ne
T
TJP Offline
I Live Here
TJP  Offline
I Live Here
T

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,311
Omaha Ne
Originally Posted by RROD
Thanks for all the information. I may have an ignition switch problem. The connector from the ignition switch harness to the main harness is warm and the amp gauge shows a current draw.

It may if the switch is on for a period of time. depends on what else is drawing power wink
This may have been previously stated BUT whistling
Wanted to mention that "Advancing the timing" requires one to turn it the distributor housing the "opposite direction" of the rotor rotation beer

Re: 440 6 Pack will not start [Re: RROD] #3042487
05/15/22 12:12 PM
05/15/22 12:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 15,956
north of coder
moparx Online content
"Butt Crack Bob"
moparx  Online Content
"Butt Crack Bob"

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 15,956
north of coder
Originally Posted by RROD
Thanks for all the information. I may have an ignition switch problem. The connector from the ignition switch harness to the main harness is warm and the amp gauge shows a current draw.



look the column to harness connector over carefully. this is a known problem area, and i have repaired this connector many times over the years.
most times the ignition switch itself is ok. the connector terminals get out of shape or fit poorly together, causing resistance, then heat, resulting in a bad connection at best and a melted connector at worse.
beer

Page 1 of 2 1 2






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1