Re: Borgeson steering box
[Re: Kern Dog]
#3040077
05/05/22 07:56 PM
05/05/22 07:56 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,061 Atlanta, GA
mgoblue9798
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,061
Atlanta, GA
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Rick Ehrenberg did an article in Mopar Action several years ago about changing over from the old style to the Borgeson box. Claimed the new set up was almost as good as rack and pinion and the next best thing for our old mopars without a major rework. Might be worth digging it up to read.
No first hand experience with them but like you I am curious if others feel it is worth dropping a grand on the setup.
Last edited by mgoblue9798; 05/05/22 07:57 PM.
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Re: Borgeson steering box
[Re: mgoblue9798]
#3040118
05/05/22 10:02 PM
05/05/22 10:02 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
OP
Striving for excellence
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OP
Striving for excellence
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Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Rick Ehrenberg did an article in Mopar Action several years ago about changing over from the old style to the Borgeson box. Claimed the new set up was almost as good as rack and pinion and the next best thing for our old mopars without a major rework. Might be worth digging it up to read.
No first hand experience with them but like you I am curious if others feel it is worth dropping a grand on the setup. Thank you. I have read everything that Rick has written about this unit. I do trust him. It seems that everyone that I know of that has installed the Borgeson has replaced a standard Mopar unit that was worn out or leaking. So far, I don't recall hearing from anyone that pulled a functioning Firm Feel or Steer and Gear chuck with high effort. I do drive the car in a spirited manner. I love turning corners, freeway on and off ramps, curvy roads, etc. The transition between straight ahead and entering turns really sucks when there is the slop and delay.
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Re: Borgeson steering box
[Re: Kern Dog]
#3040289
05/06/22 11:56 AM
05/06/22 11:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,404 Michigan
MarkZ
Worthy
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Worthy
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,404
Michigan
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Rick Ehrenberg did an article in Mopar Action several years ago about changing over from the old style to the Borgeson box. Claimed the new set up was almost as good as rack and pinion and the next best thing for our old mopars without a major rework. Might be worth digging it up to read.
No first hand experience with them but like you I am curious if others feel it is worth dropping a grand on the setup. Thank you. I have read everything that Rick has written about this unit. I do trust him. It seems that everyone that I know of that has installed the Borgeson has replaced a standard Mopar unit that was worn out or leaking. So far, I don't recall hearing from anyone that pulled a functioning Firm Feel or Steer and Gear chuck with high effort. I do drive the car in a spirited manner. I love turning corners, freeway on and off ramps, curvy roads, etc. The transition between straight ahead and entering turns really sucks when there is the slop and delay. I pulled out a rebuilt box from Steer and Gear for a second gen Borgeson box. The box from Steer and Gear wasn't leaking and functioned as it should. This was done purely for upgrade reasons. That being said, it was the best $800 I dropped on the car. It's doesn't matter how you rebuild an OE box, they all have the 12 o' clock slop and it was eliminated going with Borgeson. The improved ratio feels far more natural like driving a new car and not a damn ship at sea. Weight and space savings were icing on the cake. Only thing I would add is use their pump with it. There were so many different valving combinations over the years for pressure and flow it's silly. Who knows what valves are in store bought rebuilds too.
1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
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Re: Borgeson steering box
[Re: MarkZ]
#3040297
05/06/22 12:17 PM
05/06/22 12:17 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 270 Mountain View, CA
68rrunner
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 270
Mountain View, CA
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Agreed. There were some serious issues with the first run of these boxes, but I think they've got them sorted now for the most part. I haven't had an issue since the first one(first gen) I installed for a customer, it had the input shaft/column alignment issue. We also had a few that would back the pitman arm nut off, despite 2 retorques. KInda weird, almost like the splines needed to bed in. HOWEVER, the last 2 have been great. Installed one into my 62 about 4 years ago, daily drive that one and it was fantastic, all the previous issues were gone. Dropping one into my Road Runner now to replace my Firm Feel stage 2 that sprung a leak after 14 years of faithful service. I posted in another thread, the current Borg boxes are 12.1 lbs lighter than the stock boxes (stock box is 35.9 lbs on a certified scale, Borg unit was 23.8). That is a lot of weight off the nose.
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Re: Borgeson steering box
[Re: 68rrunner]
#3040376
05/06/22 03:50 PM
05/06/22 03:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,404 Michigan
MarkZ
Worthy
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Worthy
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,404
Michigan
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Agreed. There were some serious issues with the first run of these boxes, but I think they've got them sorted now for the most part. I haven't had an issue since the first one(first gen) I installed for a customer, it had the input shaft/column alignment issue. We also had a few that would back the pitman arm nut off, despite 2 retorques. KInda weird, almost like the splines needed to bed in. HOWEVER, the last 2 have been great. Installed one into my 62 about 4 years ago, daily drive that one and it was fantastic, all the previous issues were gone. Dropping one into my Road Runner now to replace my Firm Feel stage 2 that sprung a leak after 14 years of faithful service. I posted in another thread, the current Borg boxes are 12.1 lbs lighter than the stock boxes (stock box is 35.9 lbs on a certified scale, Borg unit was 23.8). That is a lot of weight off the nose. I remember reading on here about the alignment issues. Probably had something to do with the fact that the mounting ears were welded onto the housing and not cast with it like the new boxes. I've had a gen2 box on the car now for six years. Only issue I had was with trying to get the correct pump pressure. Finally sorted when I just got a pump from Borgeson.
1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
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Re: Borgeson steering box
[Re: mgoblue9798]
#3040377
05/06/22 03:51 PM
05/06/22 03:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,404 Michigan
MarkZ
Worthy
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Worthy
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,404
Michigan
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Mark don't you own a 5th avenue? Did you put the box in it? Yup. Used the large sector shaft version with a Bergman column adapter. Dad has the same setup in his Diplomat as well.
Last edited by MarkZ; 05/06/22 03:56 PM.
1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
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Re: Borgeson steering box
[Re: MarkZ]
#3040394
05/06/22 04:55 PM
05/06/22 04:55 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
OP
Striving for excellence
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OP
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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I pulled out a rebuilt box from Steer and Gear for a second gen Borgeson box. The box from Steer and Gear wasn't leaking and functioned as it should. This was done purely for upgrade reasons. That being said, it was the best $800 I dropped on the car. It's doesn't matter how you rebuild an OE box, they all have the 12 o' clock slop and it was eliminated going with Borgeson. The improved ratio feels far more natural like driving a new car and not a damn ship at sea. Weight and space savings were icing on the cake.
Only thing I would add is use their pump with it. There were so many different valving combinations over the years for pressure and flow it's silly. Who knows what valves are in store bought rebuilds too.
Thank you. THIS is what I wanted to see.
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Re: Borgeson steering box
[Re: 68rrunner]
#3040395
05/06/22 04:56 PM
05/06/22 04:56 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
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Striving for excellence
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Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Installed one into my 62 about 4 years ago, daily drive that one and it was fantastic, all the previous issues were gone. Dropping one into my Road Runner now to replace my Firm Feel stage 2 that sprung a leak after 14 years of faithful service. I posted in another thread, the current Borg boxes are 12.1 lbs lighter than the stock boxes (stock box is 35.9 lbs on a certified scale, Borg unit was 23.8). That is a lot of weight off the nose. Holeeee crap....12 pounds ???
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Re: Borgeson steering box
[Re: Kern Dog]
#3040408
05/06/22 06:16 PM
05/06/22 06:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442 NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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I like the weight reduction as the biggest advantage for the Borgs'n box. Also, as claimed, the center dead spot -- common for all factory Chrysler ps boxes, is claimed to be gone... that would really like.
I recently had my T/A gearbox rebuilt by FF to their Stage-3.... its definitely better than the 50-year old T/A box... and it still has a slight center dead spot, but better than before.
I use the car primarily for pylon AX and HSAX/HPDE events (and its street/hwy driven to/from those events).
I also have a smaller steering wheel... 11.5" diameter... helps quicken the steering action while whipping through the pylons... overall setup is very good... excellent through the pylons and on the road course.
I'd be most curious to know what its like using the Borgns'n box WITH the longer arms (Fast Ratio Pitman and C-body idler... aka fast-ratio idler arm).... if it would be a little quicker than my current T/A setup... I'd be willing to change. Also, everyone should be aware that ONLY the SAGINAW ps pump is to be used for quick steering response... the Federal units fail to provide the assist at hi-rpms and rapid L-R-L-R motion.
Last edited by Mopar Mitch; 05/06/22 06:19 PM.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Borgeson steering box
[Re: captaindodge]
#3042819
05/16/22 03:03 PM
05/16/22 03:03 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
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Striving for excellence
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I just ordered the whole kit from Bergman Auto Craft. Small sector kit with the hybrid coupler and hose adapters.
I am quite anxious to drive the car with a tight steering box. I used to have a '76 Camaro with some upgrades....
That car had the bigger sway bars from a Trans Am, HD coil springs and an IROC 12.7 to 1 steering box. Say what you want about GM products but that car flat out handled great. The steering response was fantastic. I was really hoping to make the Charger equal to or better than the Camaro but I've always been disappointed by the Firm Feel steering box. This is no fault on the company. They surely did the best that they could with this design. For contrast..... My '67 Dart has the stock power steering which as you know, is almost effortless. It works perfectly for street use and the off road trails I drive it on. I wouldn't change anything about it. Turning on dirt can feel like turning on ice or mud so an easy effort steering gear is just fine. For the Charger, the higher effort magnified the feeling of the slop. This has been an eye opener for me. I thought the higher effort would be great. If there were no steering box options, I'd consider switching back to a milder Stage 2 box with stock Idler and Pitman arms to mask some of the slop. I have a 72 Duster, the aforementioned 67 Dart and another 70 Charger, all with power steering. The "Jigsaw" Charger has Fast Ratio arms. All are factory original steering boxes, none leak so they are staying in place. All feel pretty good on the road.
Last edited by Kern Dog; 05/16/22 03:03 PM.
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Re: Borgeson steering box
[Re: Kern Dog]
#3042856
05/16/22 05:27 PM
05/16/22 05:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,465 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,465
So Cal
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I just ordered the whole kit from Bergman Auto Craft. Small sector kit with the hybrid coupler and hose adapters.
I am quite anxious to drive the car with a tight steering box. I used to have a '76 Camaro with some upgrades....
That car had the bigger sway bars from a Trans Am, HD coil springs and an IROC 12.7 to 1 steering box. Say what you want about GM products but that car flat out handled great. The steering response was fantastic. I was really hoping to make the Charger equal to or better than the Camaro but I've always been disappointed by the Firm Feel steering box. This is no fault on the company. They surely did the best that they could with this design. For contrast..... My '67 Dart has the stock power steering which as you know, is almost effortless. It works perfectly for street use and the off road trails I drive it on. I wouldn't change anything about it. Turning on dirt can feel like turning on ice or mud so an easy effort steering gear is just fine. For the Charger, the higher effort magnified the feeling of the slop. This has been an eye opener for me. I thought the higher effort would be great. If there were no steering box options, I'd consider switching back to a milder Stage 2 box with stock Idler and Pitman arms to mask some of the slop. I have a 72 Duster, the aforementioned 67 Dart and another 70 Charger, all with power steering. The "Jigsaw" Charger has Fast Ratio arms. All are factory original steering boxes, none leak so they are staying in place. All feel pretty good on the road.
What power steering pump do you have. I was told by Lee Power Steering that not addressing a matched pump is often the cause of the noises and issue people have. The Saginaw's are better than the TRW/Eaton round cans. Getting the pressure and flow dialed in is important. Don't shorten the pump lines. Ever notice some factory power steering pump lines seem unnecessarily long? It IS necessary so the rubber line has more time to dampen the harmonics from the pump into the steering gear. Sometimes you'll see a odd joint in the middle of a pressure line and it goes from one size hose to another. Seems stupid because it's another place for a leak.... Well, that's to damping the harmonics also.
Last edited by autoxcuda; 05/16/22 05:54 PM.
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Re: Borgeson steering box
[Re: 68rrunner]
#3042892
05/16/22 08:01 PM
05/16/22 08:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,465 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,465
So Cal
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Just finished mounting up the new box. Column to input alignment issue is still there. Input shaft is biased to the fender well. Kit came with a Ujoint adapter. My column is custom and already had one. I'll let you guys know how it pans out. if this is anything like previous installs, I'll shim the box for proper alignment. What are the issues if you leave it slightly misaligned ?
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Re: Borgeson steering box
[Re: autoxcuda]
#3042930
05/16/22 11:25 PM
05/16/22 11:25 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 270 Mountain View, CA
68rrunner
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 270
Mountain View, CA
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Just finished mounting up the new box. Column to input alignment issue is still there. Input shaft is biased to the fender well. Kit came with a Ujoint adapter. My column is custom and already had one. I'll let you guys know how it pans out. if this is anything like previous installs, I'll shim the box for proper alignment. What are the issues if you leave it slightly misaligned ? Without a double U joint I would imagine a binding issue or tight spots. We did a pretty extensive dive into this issue when they first hit the market.
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Re: Borgeson steering box install complete
[Re: BDW]
#3046177
05/29/22 02:36 PM
05/29/22 02:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,465 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,465
So Cal
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Interested in hearing the driving impression Same here
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Re: Borgeson steering box install complete
[Re: autoxcuda]
#3046277
05/29/22 09:59 PM
05/29/22 09:59 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
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Striving for excellence
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Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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I posted a link to my thread at For B Bodies Only. At the moment, the site is down for some upgrade. I don't mind sharing it to all that care to read. Beforehand, I had a Firm Feel Stage 3 chuck with Fast Ratio Pitman and Idler arms. 2 3/4 turns lock to lock. Steering was very stiff once you got past the slop. The on center slop was similar to what a stock box has but since the steering effort was so high, there was a stark difference in feel between the slop and when the tires actually started to steer. It felt like manual steering with a slight assist. This was annoying and NOT confidence inspiring. Driving on curvy roads meant crossing over the slop at every turn. Straight line driving meant frequent corrections to maintain a line. In fairness, some of the poor characteristics could be blamed on wide tires and alignment....maybe. I bought the steering box and associated parts from Bergman Auto Craft. In this $895 kit was the hybrid coupler that just slipped in place of the stock one...it has the splined end welded to it that fits the Borgeson box. There is no modification of any kind. This all fits without modification. After filling the reservoir with AC/Delco fluid, I started the car and rotated the wheel left to right. This sucked the pump dry so I topped it off. The swap required almost a full quart of fluid. Steering now is much lighter and is 3 1/2 turns lock to lock like stock but the feel is vastly different. This box is a 14-1 ratio, stock is 15.7. Steering effort can be described as follows.....If you rate a stock power steering car at a 0 and my Stage 3 box with Fast Ratio arms at 100, the Borgeson effort comes in around 35. It is power assisted but not boosted. It feels much like a late model car where it is comfortable to steer without feeling like a workout. The wheel returns to center like it should. No buzzing or humming like I have heard from some. There is no slop at any point in the steering range. Response is immediate but not twitchy. It absolutely IS confidence inspiring. Finally, I mean no ill will to Firm Feel. If I had this chuck of mine in another car with stock idler and Pitman arms, it wouldn't feel so bad. This project included a new coupler which replaced a seasoned unit that may have had some wear to it. The reduced steering ratio results in easier steering. The factory Mopar power steering was never intended to be a performance unit but was modified to be one. However.... I had less than 15.000 miles on the FF box so I did expect a bit better life from it. I've driven a couple of cars with the Stage 2 unit and in retrospect, that is a better setup to live with if one were to choose a rebuild. The Borgeson is almost double the cost and will be out of the reach for many people but the feel is far better. It gives owners an experience similar to a modern car.
Last edited by Kern Dog; 05/29/22 10:01 PM.
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Re: Borgeson steering box install complete
[Re: Kern Dog]
#3047405
06/02/22 03:02 PM
06/02/22 03:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,404 Michigan
MarkZ
Worthy
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Worthy
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,404
Michigan
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I'm glad you're happy with the box. Nice writeup too. Next time the car is apart I'll add a zerk fitting to the coupler adapter - good idea.
1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
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Re: Borgeson steering box install complete
[Re: Kern Dog]
#3047988
06/05/22 09:47 AM
06/05/22 09:47 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,404 Michigan
MarkZ
Worthy
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Worthy
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,404
Michigan
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Damn. That's a lot of shrapnel. How does the rest of the motor look? I rolled two lobes on a flat tappet in a SB once and ended up having to do a complete rebuild.
1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
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Re: Borgeson steering box install complete
[Re: Kern Dog]
#3048243
06/06/22 11:05 AM
06/06/22 11:05 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,061 Atlanta, GA
mgoblue9798
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,061
Atlanta, GA
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I am going through all of it. New .040 pistons with a 24 cc dish to lower compression while gaining quench. I had .075 Cometic head gaskets in since 2014 and while it did achieve the lower compression I needed, I always knew that it was the least desirable way to get there. Back then I wasn't willing to pull the engine to do it this way. New oil pump, rings, bearings, zero deck the block and a set of Fel Pro head gaskets. ( .039" compressed) I will end up at 9.8 to 1, approx .03 to 1 less than I was but with real quench this time. Thanks for all the input, guys. I do appreciate it. You no doubt are making the right choice going through that engine. No sense making a big problem even worse trying to patch it. I am curious to hear your opinion on the new combo v/s old once completed.
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Re: Borgeson steering box install complete
[Re: Kern Dog]
#3050147
06/13/22 10:48 AM
06/13/22 10:48 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,061 Atlanta, GA
mgoblue9798
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,061
Atlanta, GA
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The engine is at the machine shop for bore-hone. I bought new pistons from 440 Source in .040 with a 24 cc dish. I'm having the block decked to arrive at a .005 deck clearance. This will give me a 9.7 to 1 ratio with quench. I'm going to paint the engine with a spray gun using urethane enamel in GoManGo orange. For the cam....I'm still undecided but currently contemplating the use of the Lunati solid flat tappet that I ran in the engine for a couple of years. It made great power but idled a bit rough and had low idle vacuum. I'm switching to a manual brake 15/16" master cylinder so idle vacuum won't be a concern. The K member, steering and other components will get freshened up while they are out. The new motor having proper quench will make a significant difference in bottom end torque. Will help with cam manners some. If using a urethane you want to use the correct hardener as well, and be sure to use a mask. Isocyanates are nothing to fool around with. If you don't have a paint booth with a fan to remove the overspray then paint it outside.
Last edited by mgoblue9798; 06/13/22 10:52 AM.
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Re: Borgeson steering box install complete
[Re: Kern Dog]
#3061998
07/24/22 02:52 AM
07/24/22 02:52 AM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,545 Seattle, WA
375inStroke
Special needs person
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Special needs person
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,545
Seattle, WA
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Beforehand, I had a Firm Feel Stage 3 chuck with Fast Ratio Pitman and Idler arms. 2 3/4 turns lock to lock. Steering was very stiff once you got past the slop. The on center slop was similar to what a stock box has but since the steering effort was so high, there was a stark difference in feel between the slop and when the tires actually started to steer. It felt like manual steering with a slight assist. This was annoying and NOT confidence inspiring. Driving on curvy roads meant crossing over the slop at every turn. Straight line driving meant frequent corrections to maintain a line.
This is the best, most informative explanation on this subject I've ever read. I've got a cop box in the R/T, and with my alignment, it feels great to me. I hate how new cars never want to track straight, like there's too much stiffness on center, so I have to keep correcting, but I don't drive many new cars. You talked me into getting a Borgeson for the other Charger.
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Re: Borgeson steering box install complete
[Re: Kern Dog]
#3062256
07/25/22 12:38 AM
07/25/22 12:38 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,995 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,995
Oregon
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No charge from me. It is just one of the many services that I offer for free. And we appreciate it. Well except for one really cranky dude in your neck of the woods who doesn't seem to appreciate anything from anybody. But everyone else appreciates it.
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Re: Borgeson steering box install complete
[Re: Kern Dog]
#3095927
11/21/22 07:21 AM
11/21/22 07:21 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
OP
Striving for excellence
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OP
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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I understand that this is the handling forum but I'm also one that appreciates when a thread is updated. The engine has been in for about 5 weeks and has been running great. I've been struggling with the steering and brakes though. I installed a hydroboost system and had a lot of trouble getting it to function. I went through several power steering pumps. They kept failing. I got fed up and pulled the hydroboost setup and switched to a manual master cylinder. The steering pump was replaced again but in doing so, I found that the inline cooler had a kinked line. This made me wonder if that was responsible for the pumps failing along with the hydroboost never working. As it stands now, the steering works perfectly but the brakes are not right. I have the Dr Diff 13" Cobra setup in the front and his 11.7" setup out back and a 15/16" manual master cylinder. Stopping at 20 mph or slower is great but over that, the pedal just isn't transmitting enough force to adequately slow the car down. It is clear that this car needs some manner of power assist. I can reinstall the vacuum booster but this cam I'm using only makes 7" of idle vacuum. I have a good vacuum pump that I could use to bridge the gap. I can also take another stab at the hydroboost setup. Maybe the kink in the return line caused the HB unit to not function properly. Good news though...The car idles better than I recall. It sounds good, it runs strong. The car seems quieter going down the road compared to before. Fewer rattles, less road noise too. I made so many small changes, I don't know where the credit belongs. New motor mounts, new tie rod ends, upgraded sway bar end links and tight fasteners on everything that I pulled and reinstalled. Either my hearing is going or this car feels like it really improved during this project!
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Re: Borgeson steering box install complete
[Re: moparx]
#3096218
11/22/22 12:49 AM
11/22/22 12:49 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
OP
Striving for excellence
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Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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your car looks fantastic ! as to your brakes, what pedal ratio do you have ? First, thank you for the kind words. By measuring them length from the center of the pedal pad to the hinge pin sleeve then dividing it by the distance between the pushrod hole and hinge pin, I get a pedal ratio of 8.13 to 1. I've read pedal ratio numbers quoted as being 4 to 1 for manual and 2 to 1 for power which confuses me. How and where are they measuring to arrive at those numbers? The measurement from the hinge pivot at the top to the center of the brake pedal pad is about 12 1/8". The center to center from the hinge pin to the pushrod hole is 1 3/4" stock, I drilled above the stock hole and it now sits at 1 1/2".
Last edited by Kern Dog; 11/22/22 12:58 AM.
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Re: Borgeson steering box install complete
[Re: AndyF]
#3096220
11/22/22 12:56 AM
11/22/22 12:56 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
OP
Striving for excellence
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Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Wow, you've had more than your share of teething problems with the new parts. The brake setup that you have should work okay with a manual master cylinder. If you want to debug it you might start by verifying the brake line pressure at both ports on the master cylinder. Verify that the rear port is feeding the front brakes. You could have a bad prop valve so bypass the prop valve and any other valves in the system. Another way to tackle the debug is to verify brake line pressure at each wheel. That test will show you a kinked line or a stuck prop valve or something like that. A super cheap test is to just put some marks on the rotors with a felt pen and see if all four brakes are working. What you describe sounds like either the fronts or the rears are not working which would point me towards a bad check valve or a bad prop valve or a kinked line or something like that. The pedal effort is still too high for my liking. Today I started the change back to the power booster and vacuum pump. The pump makes 22" of vacuum and it worked great before. I have wondered if the rear brakes are even working. I have a drum-drum distribution block in the car and the MC lines are oriented correctly. I have considered just running the brake lines from the MC to a T for the fronts and just directly to the rears with no distribution block but that block makes it convenient to tie them all together. Can I gut the warning light feature from the distribution block and still use it or would it bleed pressure together for front and rear? I have not tried verifying line pressure. How is that done?
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Re: Borgeson steering box install complete
[Re: AndyF]
#3096452
11/23/22 01:29 AM
11/23/22 01:29 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
OP
Striving for excellence
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OP
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Wow, you've had more than your share of teething problems with the new parts. The brake setup that you have should work okay with a manual master cylinder. If you want to debug it you might start by verifying the brake line pressure at both ports on the master cylinder. Verify that the rear port is feeding the front brakes. You could have a bad prop valve so bypass the prop valve and any other valves in the system. Another way to tackle the debug is to verify brake line pressure at each wheel. That test will show you a kinked line or a stuck prop valve or something like that. A super cheap test is to just put some marks on the rotors with a felt pen and see if all four brakes are working. What you describe sounds like either the fronts or the rears are not working which would point me towards a bad check valve or a bad prop valve or a kinked line or something like that. I felt that something was wrong and I may have stumbled upon it. Today I got the manual MC out and the booster in. As I was bench bleeding the 1 1/8" MC, I noticed that the front port got the fluid first and the bubbles first. The rear port only started pushing fluid about 1/3 the way into the stroke. Usually, the front port serves the rear brakes while the rear port serves the front. With the brake lines connected the traditional way, the REAR is getting pressure before the front. This can't be right. I tested a stock iron 15/16' MC and front and rear get pressure at the same time. I tested the Dr Diff aluminum 15/16" MC and it was exactly like the larger 1 1/8" version: Pressure and bubbles at the front port before the rear. There was no tech sheet in the box with these master cylinders but Mancini Racing includes this sheet:
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Re: Borgeson steering box install complete
[Re: Kern Dog]
#3096454
11/23/22 01:33 AM
11/23/22 01:33 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
OP
Striving for excellence
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OP
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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This really sucks and is a DISservice to the consumer. I had the aluminum 15/16" MC in the car and really thought I had everything right, yet the car didn't feel right. I pulled that out and put the power booster and vacuum pump in today, THEN find that the ports might be reversed. The manual setup probably would have felt much better had there been SOME instructions like Mancini Racing includes with their MCs.
Last edited by Kern Dog; 11/23/22 02:32 PM.
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Re: Borgeson steering box install complete
[Re: Sniper]
#3096573
11/23/22 02:39 PM
11/23/22 02:39 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
OP
Striving for excellence
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OP
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Since you don't tell us the application for the master cylinders in question any further help is guess work.
Dr Diff supplied the 15/16" aluminum MC. He doesn't state what the original application was for it but he lists that it works for both disc-drum and 4 wheel disc. It could be a Raybestos unit but there are no markings on it to determine that. The reservoir is divided somewhat but when I fill one side, the other does fill up as well. The 1 1/8" unit is a Raybestos model. It came in a Raybestos box. It is OEM for a Dodge D and W 150 from 1979-1993. It even is OEM for many vans of the same era.
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Re: Borgeson steering box install complete
[Re: Kern Dog]
#3096588
11/23/22 03:18 PM
11/23/22 03:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442 NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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I thought this thread was about "Borgeson steering box install complete"... perhaps another new thread should've been started on brake pedals and MC, etc.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Borgeson steering box install complete
[Re: Mopar Mitch]
#3096689
11/23/22 11:56 PM
11/23/22 11:56 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,333 MARYLAND
69Cuda340S
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,333
MARYLAND
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I thought this thread was about "Borgeson steering box install complete"... perhaps another new thread should've been started on brake pedals and MC, etc. Yeah the write on the wiped cam was good though....
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Re: Borgeson steering box install complete
[Re: Kern Dog]
#3098192
11/29/22 07:59 PM
11/29/22 07:59 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,161 Los Angeles, CA
JF_Moparts
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,161
Los Angeles, CA
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That is like dating a fashion model, then dumping her to date a Wal Mart cashier. Haha, well I would first say that having dated women across a wide spectrum, sometimes the cashier is a better bargain than the model! Your mileage may vary. I ran the Borgeson with their own pump, a cooler, the Bergman coupler, and the fast ratio arms. I LOVED the ratio and for the most part, the feel. The ratio was like 10.5:1. The lighter weight was nice too. The S&G box I have is the best stock box I've ever driven. Carmen (at S&G) built me a nice one. Just about zero slop in the middle, a nice firm feel, and he used the T/A stops for my fast ratio arms. I'm going to buy another for my RR.
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Re: Borgeson steering box install complete
[Re: JF_Moparts]
#3099145
12/03/22 08:48 AM
12/03/22 08:48 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,707 Florida
BDW
master
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master
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,707
Florida
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That is like dating a fashion model, then dumping her to date a Wal Mart cashier. Haha, well I would first say that having dated women across a wide spectrum, sometimes the cashier is a better bargain than the model! Your mileage may vary. I ran the Borgeson with their own pump, a cooler, the Bergman coupler, and the fast ratio arms. I LOVED the ratio and for the most part, the feel. The ratio was like 10.5:1. The lighter weight was nice too. The S&G box I have is the best stock box I've ever driven. Carmen (at S&G) built me a nice one. Just about zero slop in the middle, a nice firm feel, and he used the T/A stops for my fast ratio arms. I'm going to buy another for my RR. But the Walmart cashier doesn’t have that whinny annoying voice, My Borgeson install has the loud noise some people complain about, funny thing is, it wasn’t as noticeable with my 340. The 5.7, although much more power, is a smoother quieter motor. I may have to lengthen or change the lines, or live with it.
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