Re: Predator builds
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3017687
02/22/22 01:25 PM
02/22/22 01:25 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,915 A shed in England
Tig
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,915
A shed in England
|
Following. Of note I don't think you can get Predator heads for a 4.840 B/S anymore (at least for a wedge block) ???
'74 Challenger..9.46 @ 145.9 1/4, 6.001 @ 118 1/8 so far. 4023lb !!! # N/A, Marsh performance 655ci, Indy Maxx, T/R, Indy 600-13 X's, Street legal, pump gas, full interior, Cal-Tracs, mufflers, 3:73's and real 10.5 radials. 9.51 @ 142.4 1/4, 6.003 @ 114 1/8 with our old mule KB, 572-13, 580 wedge. RHD '68 Barracuda Fastback 323ci street/strip. Best ET 13.88 @ 99.03
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3017696
02/22/22 01:39 PM
02/22/22 01:39 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 910 West Virginia
B1Frank
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 910
West Virginia
|
Ran 4.80 in the 1/8 with a 572 B1 engine with a Pro charger #4 PSI like to build a predator engine for sure
Last edited by B1Frank; 02/23/22 02:50 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: B1Frank]
#3017785
02/22/22 05:39 PM
02/22/22 05:39 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,853 Pattison Texas
CSK
master
|
master
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,853
Pattison Texas
|
Ran 4.80 in the 1/4 with a 572 B1 engine with a Pro charger #4 PSI like to build a predator engine for sure
Last edited by csk; 02/22/22 10:51 PM.
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: CSK]
#3017795
02/22/22 06:25 PM
02/22/22 06:25 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
|
On my third Predator build now, just a bracket .90 deal but it will make some steam..
Oh yeah went 4.50's with my last one. Just a lowly NA 604" Predator.
You know my feelings on building one for smaller cubes. Seems like the perfect place for them
They only build Predator heads for 4.80" bore space block. FWIW we run a B1, Predator and a 600-13(on a 4.84" block) now.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: John Burdine]
#3018135
02/23/22 05:17 PM
02/23/22 05:17 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
|
Zero reason a smaller cube predator cannot work. I would think they would actually shine in such an application for oh lets say a smaller big block heads up style deal..
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: John Burdine]
#3018155
02/23/22 05:49 PM
02/23/22 05:49 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035
Shelby Twp. Mi
|
I seem to remember DTHemi built a few. Paging: DTHemi lol I haven't measured the exh port area yet but, based on Al's feedback I may start the primaries at 2.125
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3018414
02/24/22 11:41 AM
02/24/22 11:41 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,915 A shed in England
Tig
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,915
A shed in England
|
So I layed these two side by side because a picture says 1000 words. While I had them out I did a quick gage of the L W and radius of each at the port opening so I could calculate the cross-section. This is a 460 Predator beside a 440-1 Indy cnc'd by Modern. At the opening the MW has a larger area! 3.36" versus 3.16" Obviously it doesn't tell the whole story. Look at the different routes the air takes, much straighter shot to the valve for the Predators. I need some
'74 Challenger..9.46 @ 145.9 1/4, 6.001 @ 118 1/8 so far. 4023lb !!! # N/A, Marsh performance 655ci, Indy Maxx, T/R, Indy 600-13 X's, Street legal, pump gas, full interior, Cal-Tracs, mufflers, 3:73's and real 10.5 radials. 9.51 @ 142.4 1/4, 6.003 @ 114 1/8 with our old mule KB, 572-13, 580 wedge. RHD '68 Barracuda Fastback 323ci street/strip. Best ET 13.88 @ 99.03
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3018444
02/24/22 12:43 PM
02/24/22 12:43 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,670 On the parachute mount
n20mstr
master
|
master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,670
On the parachute mount
|
There is a reason that as most are ported make for very good power adder pieces makes you wonder....why is an SR20 head ok, but a Predator is not?? At least i beat them up for two years on the rules and got the weight dropped for BB Mopar. IF anyone wanted to race a BB Mopar in Ultra or NMCA Extreme Street...2022 is the time
....BAD A$$ STREET CAR.....
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3018445
02/24/22 12:43 PM
02/24/22 12:43 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,923 NC
440Jim
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,923
NC
|
While I had them out I did a quick gage of the L W and radius of each at the port opening so I could calculate the cross-section. This is a 460 Predator beside a 440-1 Indy cnc'd by Modern. At the opening the MW has a larger area! 3.36" versus 3.16" Obviously it doesn't tell the whole story. Can you share the quick dimensions? I had a pair of Indy 440-1 CNC 345 (Indy's CNC porting), and for comparison they were: Intake_ Width Height Area Opening 1.375 2.650 3.644 Exhaust Width Height Area Opening 1.960 1.550 3.038 The area calcs don't account for the corner radius, just LxW
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: 440Jim]
#3018457
02/24/22 12:57 PM
02/24/22 12:57 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035
Shelby Twp. Mi
|
While I had them out I did a quick gage of the L W and radius of each at the port opening so I could calculate the cross-section. This is a 460 Predator beside a 440-1 Indy cnc'd by Modern. At the opening the MW has a larger area! 3.36" versus 3.16" Obviously it doesn't tell the whole story. Can you share the quick dimensions? I had a pair of Indy 440-1 CNC 345 (Indy's CNC porting), and for comparison they were: Intake_ Width Height Area Opening 1.375 2.650 3.644 The area calcs don't account for the corner radius, just LxW MW 2.68x1.38 R .625" Pred 2.46x1.95 R 1.38"
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: n20mstr]
#3018460
02/24/22 01:02 PM
02/24/22 01:02 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035
Shelby Twp. Mi
|
Predators were considered for my new build, however they are not legal for Ultra Street. Along with everything you have done to get some help with the rules, don't forget to SANDBAG. And if all that fails, it seems like some have had good luck using adolescent behavior to get what they want. In NMCA NA the sr20 is legal and is used and one is near the front of the pack.
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3018465
02/24/22 01:30 PM
02/24/22 01:30 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,117 Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,117
Loudoun County, VA
|
When I saw the pic of the Indy vs Predator heads side by side, the first thought that came to mind was: That's a good comparison between 1980 and 2000 cylinder head technology. Then I remembered this is a Mopar site and had to correct my thought: That's a good comparison between 1990 and 2010 cylinder head technology.
2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320 100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft) weight reduction, wheels, tires, Hellcat air box: 1.661, 11.686 at 115.97 (DA 710 ft)
1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip [2008] pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: Brad_Haak]
#3018473
02/24/22 02:00 PM
02/24/22 02:00 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,813 MI, usa
dvw
master
|
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,813
MI, usa
|
Trying to discuss rules with NMCA is an exercise in futility. Tell me again why a 4150 billet carb body of correct dimension isn't legal in an Index class? According to them "it has a distinct advantage over a casting" In fact its the ONLY part made from billet that is illegal in the class. However Methanol is legal. I shake my head. Doug
Last edited by dvw; 02/24/22 02:01 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: dvw]
#3018531
02/24/22 03:51 PM
02/24/22 03:51 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035
Shelby Twp. Mi
|
Trying to discuss rules with NMCA is an exercise in futility. Tell me again why a 4150 billet carb body of correct dimension isn't legal in an Index class? According to them "it has a distinct advantage over a casting" In fact its the ONLY part made from billet that is illegal in the class. However Methanol is legal. I shake my head. Doug Yeah some of us rallied for you. It is disappointing and I've aired my reasoning, mainly being every part of your car LOOKS more era correct than about 90% of what's in your class.
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3018552
02/24/22 04:34 PM
02/24/22 04:34 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,117 Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,117
Loudoun County, VA
|
Kidding around about "old tech" simply because that's what ya' hear about the Mopar world anyway. He11, I've built my last two combinations using two out of three of what seem to be the most hated BBM heads around, MP Stage VIs and Edelbrock Victors. If I ever try a set of Bulldogs, I could probably claim the trifecta. (Hot chocolate, actually, cuz it's cold outside)
2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320 100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft) weight reduction, wheels, tires, Hellcat air box: 1.661, 11.686 at 115.97 (DA 710 ft)
1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip [2008] pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: Brad_Haak]
#3018556
02/24/22 04:43 PM
02/24/22 04:43 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035
Shelby Twp. Mi
|
Kidding around about "old tech" simply because that's what ya' hear about the Mopar world anyway. He11, I've built my last two combinations using two out of three of what seem to be the most hated BBM heads around, MP Stage VIs and Edelbrock Victors. If I ever try a set of Bulldogs, I could probably claim the trifecta. (Hot chocolate, actually, cuz it's cold outside) No offense, i know what you meant and the way I think, performance is relative to the parts used and I respect/appreciate peoples refinements and their abilities to get above average results.
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3018620
02/24/22 07:59 PM
02/24/22 07:59 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
|
I don't think they would nessacarily run bad on a smaller engine than 600CID... it just might not run to it's max potential. Sort of like how I have heads that flow 340 CFM on a 410 horse 392, yes I could easily bump it up to 440 CID a couple more points of compression a huge cam and make 700 HP but it runs just fine on a lesser engine. I really don't think my engine will run any better with a 200 CFM head even though that's all you need to make 410HP.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: birdtracker]
#3018734
02/25/22 09:35 AM
02/25/22 09:35 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035
Shelby Twp. Mi
|
Al Aquire had a very good running 605 that I got to run 4.65 after 2 passes and a high dollar lifter decided it didn't want to play anymore. Hardcore B you should ask him if he has that camshaft. It is a known good combo. Thats me being the crew [censored]. I honestly think it would of went a .60 or even in the .50's after a couple more passes. We were definetly going the right direction Birdtracker https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMfMNxHvDp0 Hey Bird! That's neat you got to help Al! I think he said Muncie was one of his favorite tracks? Thanks for the video link too, I opened it and saw there were quite a few more racing videos and before you know it, I had forgotten why I was there. lol If my stuff runs good it is not because it's just me, I recognize it is an accumulation of inputs from so many people in this community. Al has been right there helping steer me.
Last edited by HardcoreB; 02/25/22 09:50 AM.
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3018739
02/25/22 09:44 AM
02/25/22 09:44 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035
Shelby Twp. Mi
|
While I had them out I did a quick gage of the L W and radius of each at the port opening so I could calculate the cross-section. This is a 460 Predator beside a 440-1 Indy cnc'd by Modern. At the opening the MW has a larger area! 3.36" versus 3.16" Obviously it doesn't tell the whole story. Can you share the quick dimensions? I had a pair of Indy 440-1 CNC 345 (Indy's CNC porting), and for comparison they were: Intake_ Width Height Area Opening 1.375 2.650 3.644 The area calcs don't account for the corner radius, just LxW MW 2.68x1.38 R .625" Pred 2.46x1.95 R 1.38" So, this morning I thought the cross-section calc's were off and I'm redoing those and about to log-in so i can enter my error and I see 440Jim sent me a pm telling me the calc's are off. Honestly what a gentleman, I appreciate that you didn't point out my error publicly lol. But, I really don't mind if anyone points out a mistake constructively. With that said the Pred IS BIGGER than the MW 440-1 duh. I'll post better numbers when i have more confidence in my area chart inputs. Anyone that gets the chance, launch that link video Birdtracker posted for Alguires Predator Avenger. Car run goo
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: Dartin]
#3018983
02/26/22 12:07 AM
02/26/22 12:07 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,923 NC
440Jim
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,923
NC
|
I made some simplifications/assumptions, but this is my approximation of the Predator intake opening cross-section. I could be wrong.... But if somebody else calculates something close, I will go with it. For comparison, my B1 original heads were ported by somebody to 2.74 x 1.755 with maybe 0.50 radius corners. And I came up with 4.59 sqin. A standard Koffel's gasket is 2.66 x 1.60 or about 4.04 sqin accounting for corners.
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: n20mstr]
#3019422
02/27/22 02:03 PM
02/27/22 02:03 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
|
makes you wonder....why is an SR20 head ok, but a Predator is not?? At least i beat them up for two years on the rules and got the weight dropped for BB Mopar. IF anyone wanted to race a BB Mopar in Ultra or NMCA Extreme Street...2022 is the time The reason are many but one big one is bore size. There is alot to that for sure. Another big one is development of that platform. It was originally developed for Texas Pro Stock 468" powerglide stuff that was BRUTALLY fast. Guys were willing to spend the money to make those the best they could be. Would that weight drop include a Predator head? Usually the non inline. non conventional stuff gets no weight breaks. Just curious. The SR20 and Dart 20 are "conventional" BBC valve layout. They get a small hit in NMCA for the non conventional valve angle. Our rules allow +- 2 degrees.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: birdtracker]
#3019423
02/27/22 02:06 PM
02/27/22 02:06 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
|
Al Aquire had a very good running 605 that I got to run 4.65 after 2 passes and a high dollar lifter decided it didn't want to play anymore. Hardcore B you should ask him if he has that camshaft. It is a known good combo. Thats me being the crew [censored]. I honestly think it would of went a .60 or even in the .50's after a couple more passes. We were definetly going the right direction Birdtracker https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMfMNxHvDp0 Don that clunker actually went a best of .57. I just never really got to run it much back there, well you know the struggles for sure The car actually won a TS race in Illinois last year with its new owner. BTW building a new one right now. Its smaller and will be aimed at bracket and .90 racing. Should make ok power for a bracket piece.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3019523
02/27/22 09:20 PM
02/27/22 09:20 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,923 NC
440Jim
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,923
NC
|
This is a 460 Predator ... So what CID Predator are you going to build? Do you have a 460 port with the 4.500" or 4.560" chamber? Hemi block or wedge? This could be very cool to watch the build.
Last edited by 440Jim; 02/28/22 10:18 AM. Reason: picture of offset distributor
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: HotRodDave]
#3019616
02/28/22 10:08 AM
02/28/22 10:08 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035
Shelby Twp. Mi
|
I don't think they would nessacarily run bad on a smaller engine than 600CID... it just might not run to it's max potential. Sort of like how I have heads that flow 340 CFM on a 410 horse 392, yes I could easily bump it up to 440 CID a couple more points of compression a huge cam and make 700 HP but it runs just fine on a lesser engine. I really don't think my engine will run any better with a 200 CFM head even though that's all you need to make 410HP. Yes, I don't plan to spend the money to run them to their potential just yet. So there is room to grow, and from what I see they have about 150HP more potential them a similarly prepped B1 build. Although your comparison is good in theory and valid to make your point, your Hemi will not make 410HP with 200cfm unless you make some more aggressive changes to the engine, which is my point/reasoning.
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: 440Jim]
#3019621
02/28/22 10:22 AM
02/28/22 10:22 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035
Shelby Twp. Mi
|
This is a 460 Predator ... So what CID Predator are you going to build? Do you have a 460 port with the 4.500" chamber? Hemi block or wedge? This could be very cool to watch the build. Hey Jim, yes 460 port WEDGE. They were on a 4.500" bore. I'm planning around a 4.250 crank. This season I have plenty of irons on the fire already. The 440-1/900HP combo will go in the car and I want to see that Dizusters '62 runs well. Any progress I make on the Pred build I'll share here but, I doubt I'll be blazing a trail to model after. What could be is some type of Chinese firedrill sideshow which might be entertaining. Dartin has pledged to continue to help me and Gdemon has and will be helpful as well.
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3019632
02/28/22 10:52 AM
02/28/22 10:52 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,670 On the parachute mount
n20mstr
master
|
master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,670
On the parachute mount
|
makes you wonder....why is an SR20 head ok, but a Predator is not?? At least i beat them up for two years on the rules and got the weight dropped for BB Mopar. IF anyone wanted to race a BB Mopar in Ultra or NMCA Extreme Street...2022 is the time The reason are many but one big one is bore size. There is alot to that for sure. Another big one is development of that platform. It was originally developed for Texas Pro Stock 468" powerglide stuff that was BRUTALLY fast. Guys were willing to spend the money to make those the best they could be. Would that weight drop include a Predator head? Usually the non inline. non conventional stuff gets no weight breaks. Just curious. The SR20 and Dart 20 are "conventional" BBC valve layout. They get a small hit in NMCA for the non conventional valve angle. Our rules allow +- 2 degrees. Al the Predator is NOT legal at all in Ultra or extreme
....BAD A$$ STREET CAR.....
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: n20mstr]
#3019747
02/28/22 03:36 PM
02/28/22 03:36 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
|
Al the Predator is NOT legal at all in Ultra or extreme
Yeah that ole port layout is an issue for many sanctioning bodies. in NA we have weight tiers to fit anything that is not billet. If we were allowed billet heads the Vette would have a P5 engine in it.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3045766
05/28/22 02:36 AM
05/28/22 02:36 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 39 West Central Indiana
PROSTOCKTOM
member
|
member
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 39
West Central Indiana
|
On my third Predator build now, just a bracket .90 deal but it will make some steam..
Oh yeah went 4.50's with my last one. Just a lowly NA 604" Predator.
You know my feelings on building one for smaller cubes. Seems like the perfect place for them
They only build Predator heads for 4.80" bore space block. FWIW we run a B1, Predator and a 600-13(on a 4.84" block) now. Are you using the wedge or the Hemi bolt pattern heads? Pros & Cons? Thanks, Tom
Molnar Technologies Full Service Dealer - Crankshafts & Connecting Rods
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: PROSTOCKTOM]
#3045778
05/28/22 07:04 AM
05/28/22 07:04 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,561 Motor City
6PKRTSE
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,561
Motor City
|
All good info as I almost went Predator for my car, but decided to stick with the ole tried and true HEMI....
1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute 1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack 1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi 1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL 1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383 1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440 1996 2500 RAM 488 V-10 4X4 2004 3500 Dually Cummins 4x4 2012 Challenger R/T Classic.
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: 6PKRTSE]
#3045792
05/28/22 08:26 AM
05/28/22 08:26 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,834 NW Indiana
fbs63
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,834
NW Indiana
|
I would find the minimum CSA and work backwards from there using PIPEMAX to find cubic inch. Probably have to turn it 9k plus in the lights but most of the All Motor engines are junior Pro Stocks anyway. How is minimum weight calculated in the class?
Last edited by fbs63; 05/28/22 08:32 AM.
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: PROSTOCKTOM]
#3045880
05/28/22 01:16 PM
05/28/22 01:16 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
|
Are you using the wedge or the Hemi bolt pattern heads? Pros & Cons?
Thanks, Tom
My current one is a Hemi pattern head. The last one was a Wedge. Supposedly the Hemi stuff flows a tad better but I have not found that to be the anymore than a nominal difference. We care more about port shape, cross section and runner CC than a flow number. At least with where the heads were ported the numbers are pretty much he same. I would think block availability is ALWAYS a consideration. Last one was a Wedge head because that was the block that was available. This one is on a KB hemi block, likely the last one from the original KB.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3045892
05/28/22 01:39 PM
05/28/22 01:39 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 39 West Central Indiana
PROSTOCKTOM
member
|
member
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 39
West Central Indiana
|
I guess when I asked this my main thoughts were with the head gasket clamping. I assumed the Hemi layout would offer some benefits?
Tom
Molnar Technologies Full Service Dealer - Crankshafts & Connecting Rods
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: PROSTOCKTOM]
#3045915
05/28/22 02:43 PM
05/28/22 02:43 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
|
It likely does but I have had zero issues with the Wedge stuff and head gaskets. My last deal was right at 16-1 and ths current one will be a tick over the last one. I am 99.9% sue most the blown Predator stuff is Hemi pattern for that reason. But I am an NA guy and to this point has not been an issue for me.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3045939
05/28/22 04:19 PM
05/28/22 04:19 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 39 West Central Indiana
PROSTOCKTOM
member
|
member
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 39
West Central Indiana
|
Did I read correctly that the Hemi pattern heads do not have access plugs that are required with the wedge heads? Thoughts if this design offers any performance advantage or just less hassle to deal with?
Thanks, Tom
Molnar Technologies Full Service Dealer - Crankshafts & Connecting Rods
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3046411
05/30/22 11:57 AM
05/30/22 11:57 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 39 West Central Indiana
PROSTOCKTOM
member
|
member
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 39
West Central Indiana
|
I suppose I should ask about the quality or lack of in every product Indy makes with the Predator heads. What issues have you guys ran into with them?
Tom
Molnar Technologies Full Service Dealer - Crankshafts & Connecting Rods
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3046444
05/30/22 01:28 PM
05/30/22 01:28 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,049 San Jose Ca.
boatracer572
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,049
San Jose Ca.
|
I've been reading thru the archives and there has been some good info relayed on different Predator head builds. I'd like to hear of any new updates or builds using these heads Wedge or Hemi. Any new parts available? What ever happened to the Cam F/X rocker arm programs? Who's got stuff lying around not being used? I only know of one build smaller than 550CID, anyone do a smaller CID build? Asking for a friend. May have a set of 1.9 cam FX rockers available soon ,if your interested pm me there tool steel…. Have run more than a few combos , current one is based off a KB, it’s 612” made a tic over 1300 HP…. It’s been a great fast bracket combo, good luck with your build…. Tony
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: fbs63]
#3046669
05/31/22 08:20 AM
05/31/22 08:20 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035
Shelby Twp. Mi
|
I would find the minimum CSA and work backwards from there using PIPEMAX to find cubic inch. Probably have to turn it 9k plus in the lights but most of the All Motor engines are junior Pro Stocks anyway. How is minimum weight calculated in the class? 10Exactly. 2)Exactly. 3)Well, there are the rules and like anywhere else I'd guess there is a matter on how they are interpreted. My INDY S/R 485" with 2 4bbl would be about 2830lbs. Weight breaks for Mopar=-125lbs Teir2 Body=-50 Then a penalty for 2 carbs 10% of CID again about 2830lbs total with driver of course. (EDIT: 480CID is 2940 base weight)
Last edited by HardcoreB; 05/31/22 08:55 AM. Reason: added info
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: boatracer572]
#3046672
05/31/22 08:53 AM
05/31/22 08:53 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035
Shelby Twp. Mi
|
I've been reading thru the archives and there has been some good info relayed on different Predator head builds. I'd like to hear of any new updates or builds using these heads Wedge or Hemi. Any new parts available? What ever happened to the Cam F/X rocker arm programs? Who's got stuff lying around not being used? I only know of one build smaller than 550CID, anyone do a smaller CID build? Asking for a friend. May have a set of 1.9 cam FX rockers available soon ,if your interested pm me there tool steel…. Have run more than a few combos , current one is based off a KB, it’s 612” made a tic over 1300 HP…. It’s been a great fast bracket combo, good luck with your build…. Tony Thanks Tony, your stuff is always top-shelf. The Predator project is idle now at least until I finish rebuilding the 485" S/R (nearly done) WHILE THE KB Block -1 Head motor is going together I will see what shared parts may be integrated into that upgrade. (Low-deck KB block, lifters, oil system, cam drive and ignition???) The block has .937 lifter bores but, spreading them and going to a keyway might be a good idea for 9000+. I do have a RELIABLE valvetrain package based around a 1.8 rocker and current lifter placement BUT, want to make worthwhile power too. Also, it's looking like a custom single 4bbl intake would be the best way to go on this.
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: boatracer572]
#3046774
05/31/22 03:14 PM
05/31/22 03:14 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 39 West Central Indiana
PROSTOCKTOM
member
|
member
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 39
West Central Indiana
|
My kb has 2.0” lifter bore spread and a 1.062” Jesel keyway lifter… speeding the lifters that much makes it possible to run a 5/8” pushrod and straightens the pushrods a ton, but cam cores (55mm ) are hard to get… Have you tried getting a cam from LSM? Tom
Molnar Technologies Full Service Dealer - Crankshafts & Connecting Rods
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: PROSTOCKTOM]
#3046817
05/31/22 05:17 PM
05/31/22 05:17 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
|
Go to a 60MM and cams are much easier to come by. Same core as used in TF and Blown Alky stuff. I have had no issues with getting cams FWIW
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: PROSTOCKTOM]
#3047263
06/01/22 10:53 PM
06/01/22 10:53 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,049 San Jose Ca.
boatracer572
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,049
San Jose Ca.
|
My kb has 2.0” lifter bore spread and a 1.062” Jesel keyway lifter… speeding the lifters that much makes it possible to run a 5/8” pushrod and straightens the pushrods a ton, but cam cores (55mm ) are hard to get… Have you tried getting a cam from LSM? Tom Not directly in a while.... Im sure there like every one else.... long waits!!
Last edited by boatracer572; 06/01/22 10:57 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3052250
06/21/22 08:37 PM
06/21/22 08:37 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 39 West Central Indiana
PROSTOCKTOM
member
|
member
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 39
West Central Indiana
|
Thinking about buying a Callies/ Energy Hemi block. Anyone using one with their Predator headed engine?
Tom
Molnar Technologies Full Service Dealer - Crankshafts & Connecting Rods
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: PROSTOCKTOM]
#3083578
10/05/22 02:56 PM
10/05/22 02:56 PM
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383 Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
|
I am now seriously looking at these again...Broke somthing in the valve train in the big Hemi, probably another intake spring, and I want somthing I can do Drag Week with and still run low 9's or high 8's.......
Last edited by Dragula; 10/05/22 02:57 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3083790
10/06/22 12:18 PM
10/06/22 12:18 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,117 Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,117
Loudoun County, VA
|
Over rated we should all be looking at TF270's instead
2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320 100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft) weight reduction, wheels, tires, Hellcat air box: 1.661, 11.686 at 115.97 (DA 710 ft)
1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip [2008] pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: Dragula]
#3083875
10/06/22 04:42 PM
10/06/22 04:42 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
|
Since you spoke up.....What do you like better, Predator, Hemi 99, or? Which one is more maintenance? Well one will make peak 8000-8500 built all out and the other 10,000+ in maxed out form. A generalization but hope it makes for a clearer picture. Also 99/06 stuff is getting harder and harder to come by, they also are VERY short deck height blocks, think smalblock Ford short. And no one makes a block to accommodate the head. So 550ish cubes is the limit. Not really a matter of liking one better they are IMO focused on two different types of racing. Both canmake power. The 99 can make more naturally aspirated at the cost of RPM...The other can be done from bracket NA to power adder stuff and they see to work well. The Wheatcrafts have a few centrifugal Predators making right at 2000hp at low boost levels.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: powertrip]
#3085046
10/11/22 09:34 AM
10/11/22 09:34 AM
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383 Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
|
One of the things I have learned so far in this very informative thread is that a 60mm cam core is preferable when building one of these beasts. Having no experience myself, can you also do a +.250" raised cam along with the 60mm cam? If so, how large of a stroke would be practical to run?
I'm thinking a big cube, reliable, bracket / Dragweek type deal. Based on the pad in the block the cam gets machined into, I would think the raised cam is almost required to have the tunnel bored out to 60mm, just looking at my Callies block, there would not be a lot of material on the bottom if you machined a block with the cam in the standard location....I could be wrong, but seems like it would be thin.
Last edited by Dragula; 10/11/22 09:34 AM.
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: Dragula]
#3085749
10/13/22 12:31 PM
10/13/22 12:31 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
|
Well for me its raised cam 60MM cam. Lifter bores can be stock but the pushrod is not the straightest and clearance for a proper sized pushrod for something like you would build is tight. Also tie bar lifters make getting a bigger pushrod very tough. But it can be and has been done. Ideally you woudl want to spread the lifters out to straighten the pushrod and do with a keyway style lifter. While you are there you can move the lifter diameter to .937" or 1.062", which also gains a larger diameter roller wheel. You can do 655" with a 5" crank or another option is a 645" which is a smaller bore of only 4.530" which will leave some room for later. FWIW my current build is a 596" for brackets.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: powertrip]
#3091433
11/03/22 03:11 PM
11/03/22 03:11 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
|
My latest one is getting closer. Closer than this picture makes it seem. Waiting on Isky to make the "custom" lifters for me as we are trying something new for a Predator for me anyway. So we can order pushrods and make sure we have clearance issues all resolved for them. My 655 is also getting close to going back together. Here is a pic thats a bit old now but for those who have not seen the stuff.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: FastmOp]
#3091550
11/04/22 07:33 AM
11/04/22 07:33 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 114 NW Indiana
powertrip
member
|
member
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 114
NW Indiana
|
Beautiful!! What is the combo?
Last edited by powertrip; 11/04/22 11:12 AM.
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: FastmOp]
#3091610
11/04/22 12:42 PM
11/04/22 12:42 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
|
That's Nice stuff.
I just got some ole -1s I aint got one of them spinny things though
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: powertrip]
#3091614
11/04/22 12:50 PM
11/04/22 12:50 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
|
Beautiful!! What is the combo? KB Hemi block and Predator heads, Bryant crank, Jesel belt, blah blah blah. 596" single 4 for brackets and mainly .90 racing. Should be 1130ish or so. Also freshening our 600-13(smaller version not the X or 3X) 655" deal. Should both make similar power numbers. Be interesting to see how they fair as the combos are pretty close to each other in terms of cam numbers and compression carb and both being bracket pieces. But one with a "spread port" type head and the other with a typical BBM type head albeit with a much larger intake valve and cross section. One is 69" bigger as well. We know what the 655 made before and this time it should be a bit better with not so much piston to wall and more compression. Hope to dyno them back to back and Ill share more later when they are both done. Should be an interesting comparison.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: powertrip]
#3091616
11/04/22 01:08 PM
11/04/22 01:08 PM
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383 Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
|
There you go, get started on building that Drag Week motor!! I kinda jumped the shark on that already....There was a set of those heads on here complete for $6500 and if I can find them, and if the owner might be interested in some trading parts and cash, that becomes a possibility....So I did put a post in the want ads... In the meantime, I am working on a fix for my issue on the Hemiroid, and the new cam showed up I will post updates after the weekend. ....Meanwhile, I am nose deep in this thread.
Last edited by Dragula; 11/04/22 01:09 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: Dragula]
#3091619
11/04/22 01:22 PM
11/04/22 01:22 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
|
Make sure if you are chasing used Predator parts you get the post NRC stuff, the pieces that Indy now casts after Steve Gill updated the entire casting......
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: CokeBottleKid]
#3207728
01/24/24 07:19 AM
01/24/24 07:19 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,019 MN
JERICOGTX
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,019
MN
|
So... does Indy still make these heads? Can't tell by their website it's straight out of the 90s... Yes.
69 GTX
68 Road Runner
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: JERICOGTX]
#3207801
01/24/24 01:32 PM
01/24/24 01:32 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,561 Motor City
6PKRTSE
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,561
Motor City
|
I wanted to do Predator build initially. Decided I wanted to keep it more streetable for now and went HEMI.
1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute 1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack 1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi 1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL 1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383 1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440 1996 2500 RAM 488 V-10 4X4 2004 3500 Dually Cummins 4x4 2012 Challenger R/T Classic.
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: CokeBottleKid]
#3208037
01/25/24 09:26 AM
01/25/24 09:26 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,035
Shelby Twp. Mi
|
So... does Indy still make these heads? Can't tell by their website it's straight out of the 90s... There was a shop tour video on 'Youtu' around the time the Wheatcrafts bought Indy and I think I counted 7 or more pairs of raw new castings. Like Al said the later versions have casting improvements which may or may not be necessary for some milder builds IDK. Scott Brown is in partner with some guys which have a 'big' port cnc program for them FWIW.
|
|
|
Re: Predator builds
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3208334
01/26/24 05:19 PM
01/26/24 05:19 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,932 Finalnd, Perkele
jyrki
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,932
Finalnd, Perkele
|
Had my hands on an old predator headed engine that Chris Rini used to run, made by Muscle motors. Took the heads to a flow bench and they really weren't very spectacular. Sure, they were old,maybe million valve jobs etc. But still raised some thoughts. The exhaust was decent.
Plynouth VIP '67 TT IC EFI
|
|
|
|
|