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Re: Header design, merge collectors? [Re: gregsdart] #2999795
12/30/21 08:33 AM
12/30/21 08:33 AM
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Brian Smith makes those header flanges. He used to be a member here, but have not seen him in a long time. He is on Facebook though. You will not find a nicer header collector piece than he makes.

Header4.jpg
Last edited by JERICOGTX; 12/30/21 08:39 AM.

69 GTX 68 Road Runner
Re: Header design, merge collectors? [Re: JERICOGTX] #2999803
12/30/21 09:06 AM
12/30/21 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by JERICOGTX
Brian Smith makes those header flanges. He used to be a member here, but have not seen him in a long time. He is on Facebook though. You will not find a nicer header collector piece than he makes.


Looked for Brian Smith on facebook, there are 100's LOL

As far as a cam, all I know is when I went back with the "regular" headers on the "new" cam, I lost power. The merge collectors are helping the exhaust. If you had a carb and changed headers, you would never "see" any difference because the carb would add the extra fuel. Calvin Easton said besides changing the cam profile, some NASCAR teams used a smaller exhaust valve, which allowed an even bigger intake valve.

Joe

Last edited by sr4440; 12/30/21 09:30 AM.

Without Data, you’re just another guy with an opinion.
Re: Header design, merge collectors? [Re: sr4440] #2999812
12/30/21 09:41 AM
12/30/21 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by sr4440

I switch from a regular 2.25 26in header to a 12in 1st step 2.125 and a 2nd 12 inch 2.25 with a 3 1/2 inch merge, to 3 to 4 inch cone. When I put the merge headers on an B1 MFI 512, the engine went dead lean. The fuel pressure was the same, the engine was just moving a lot more air or pulling the initial fuel through the cylinder. I ended up putting more fuel in it to get back the HP. Went from a .920 BSFC to 1.105 BSFC to make the same power. The cam was a 282 292 with a 112 LSA. So I ordered a new cam 282 284 112 LSA. The new came didn't make any more HP, but it did make about 20ft more torque, up to peak TQ. Has a super flat curve. LOL I wasn't expecting results like that considering how small the exhaust valve is on a b1 head.

Joe

Joe, is this a correct summary. The header change didn't add any peak HP, but helped at and below the torque peak?


1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1
Re: Header design, merge collectors? [Re: sr4440] #2999815
12/30/21 09:46 AM
12/30/21 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by sr4440
Originally Posted by JERICOGTX
Brian Smith makes those header flanges. He used to be a member here, but have not seen him in a long time. He is on Facebook though. You will not find a nicer header collector piece than he makes.


Looked for Brian Smith on facebook, there are 100's LOL



Look up Smith Innovation.


69 GTX 68 Road Runner
Re: Header design, merge collectors? [Re: JERICOGTX] #2999849
12/30/21 11:29 AM
12/30/21 11:29 AM
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Brian is a good guy, sharp character too. He, his Dad and brother were on here years ago, like many others they just faded out.

Re: Header design, merge collectors? [Re: 440Jim] #3000049
12/30/21 06:20 PM
12/30/21 06:20 PM
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sr4440 Offline
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Originally Posted by 440Jim
Originally Posted by sr4440

I switch from a regular 2.25 26in header to a 12in 1st step 2.125 and a 2nd 12 inch 2.25 with a 3 1/2 inch merge, to 3 to 4 inch cone. When I put the merge headers on an B1 MFI 512, the engine went dead lean. The fuel pressure was the same, the engine was just moving a lot more air or pulling the initial fuel through the cylinder. I ended up putting more fuel in it to get back the HP. Went from a .920 BSFC to 1.105 BSFC to make the same power. The cam was a 282 292 with a 112 LSA. So I ordered a new cam 282 284 112 LSA. The new came didn't make any more HP, but it did make about 20ft more torque, up to peak TQ. Has a super flat curve. LOL I wasn't expecting results like that considering how small the exhaust valve is on a b1 head.

Joe

Joe, is this a correct summary. The header change didn't add any peak HP, but helped at and below the torque peak?


They say a pic is worth a 1000 words, here are the run with the old headers and a 100 pill and the new headers after i added a b%%load of fuel (90 pill). The higher number will be with the merge collectors. The cam change added tq below peak TQ.

Joe

Attached PDF document
new headers.pdf (70 downloads)
Last edited by sr4440; 12/30/21 06:22 PM.

Without Data, you’re just another guy with an opinion.
Re: Header design, merge collectors? [Re: sr4440] #3000127
12/30/21 09:52 PM
12/30/21 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by sr4440
They say a pic is worth a 1000 words, here are the run with the old headers and a 100 pill and the new headers after i added a b%%load of fuel (90 pill). The higher number will be with the merge collectors. The cam change added tq below peak TQ.

Joe
Thanks for the dyno curves. Is that a comparison of the baseline cam and 2-1/4 headers, compared to the new cam and step headers? Or just the header swap?


1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1
Re: Header design, merge collectors? [Re: 440Jim] #3000158
12/30/21 10:57 PM
12/30/21 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 440Jim
Originally Posted by sr4440
They say a pic is worth a 1000 words, here are the run with the old headers and a 100 pill and the new headers after i added a b%%load of fuel (90 pill). The higher number will be with the merge collectors. The cam change added tq below peak TQ.

Joe
Thanks for the dyno curves. Is that a comparison of the baseline cam and 2-1/4 headers, compared to the new cam and step headers? Or just the header swap?


That was just the header swap and adding fuel to get the power back, same timing.

Joe


Without Data, you’re just another guy with an opinion.
Re: Header design, merge collectors? [Re: sr4440] #3002046
01/04/22 05:26 PM
01/04/22 05:26 PM
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You guys convinced me to change plans and build a step header for my new 572 CID B1 engine.
I had previously bought only 2-1/4" tubes. So I bought some 2-1/8" J-bends.
This pic shows the original test fit of the 2-1/4" tube in the custom flanges I had made locally to fit the porting on my heads,
and also the 2-1/8" tube test fit next to it. The 2-1/4" was really tight, the 2-1/8" were easier to form to the shape. This worked out great.

Header_formed2125 (1)-labels.jpg

1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1
Re: Header design, merge collectors? [Re: 440Jim] #3002077
01/04/22 06:53 PM
01/04/22 06:53 PM
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If you have access to Pipemax you'll be able to get the recommend lengths for each step as well as the collector size and length. If you don't have Pipemax than maybe someone on the board with a copy will run the numbers for you. I'd think that you would want your own copy if you don't have one already since a lot of what you do would fit nicely with the way the program works.

Re: Header design, merge collectors? [Re: 440Jim] #3002151
01/04/22 10:25 PM
01/04/22 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by 440Jim
You guys convinced me to change plans and build a step header for my new 572 CID B1 engine.
I had previously bought only 2-1/4" tubes. So I bought some 2-1/8" J-bends.
This pic shows the original test fit of the 2-1/4" tube in the custom flanges I had made locally to fit the porting on my heads,
and also the 2-1/8" tube test fit next to it. The 2-1/4" was really tight, the 2-1/8" were easier to form to the shape. This worked out great.

Jim, I bought pipemax, can run numbers for you. If you download pipemax, you can fill in all the info, take a picture and send it to me. I can run it and send back info.

Last edited by gregsdart; 01/04/22 10:27 PM.

8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Header design, merge collectors? [Re: gregsdart] #3002522
01/06/22 10:00 AM
01/06/22 10:00 AM
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Collecters kit showed up today. Merges down to 3.5 then back to 4 inch

PXL_20220105_230048488.jpg

8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Header design, merge collectors? [Re: gregsdart] #3002579
01/06/22 12:48 PM
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Looks interesting. I haven't seen that inner ring before. Wonder what the idea is behind that? Looks like it would block the flow. Maybe that is just a welding fixture?

Re: Header design, merge collectors? [Re: AndyF] #3002581
01/06/22 01:11 PM
01/06/22 01:11 PM
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^ Yes it's just a fixture for the cone

Nice stuff smile


69 Charger. 438ci Gen2 hemi. Flex fuel. Holley HP efi. 650rwhp @7250 510rwtq @5700
Re: Header design, merge collectors? [Re: INTMD8] #3002595
01/06/22 01:47 PM
01/06/22 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by INTMD8
^ Yes it's just a fixture for the cone

Nice stuff smile


And they pack it like it's fine china. Nice to see someone making nice stuff and caring.


If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: Header design, merge collectors? [Re: gregsdart] #3003824
01/10/22 02:31 PM
01/10/22 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by gregsdart
The plan is ;. 10 inch 1st step of 2 1/8 16 Ga, 14 inch 2 1/4 for second step, over all 10 inch of collector with a 3 1/2 inch merge, to 3 to 4 inch cone.
Greg,
is that 10" going to be 3.5" valve to flange + 6.5" of actual 2-1/8 pipe from the flange? Or 10" of actual 2-1/8 pipe + 3.5" valve to flange = 13.5" total (PipeMax)

B1_Headers_28Feb2022post2.jpg
Last edited by 440Jim; 02/28/22 05:48 PM. Reason: picture

1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1
Re: Header design, merge collectors? [Re: 440Jim] #3004229
01/11/22 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 440Jim
Originally Posted by gregsdart
The plan is ;. 10 inch 1st step of 2 1/8 16 Ga, 14 inch 2 1/4 for second step, over all 10 inch of collector with a 3 1/2 inch merge, to 3 to 4 inch cone.
Greg,
is that 10" going to be 3.5" valve to flange + 6.5" of actual 2-1/8 pipe from the flange? Or 10" of actual 2-1/8 pipe + 3.5" valve to flange = 13.5" total (PipeMax)

13.5 to 14 total length


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Header design, merge collectors? [Re: gregsdart] #3004825
01/13/22 10:41 AM
01/13/22 10:41 AM
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Nice looking stuff Greg! There is a pic that shows the upper corners of the port outlet obstructed by the new flanges. I wouldn't overlook fixing that too. Thanks for sharing.

Re: Header design, merge collectors? [Re: HardcoreB] #3004828
01/13/22 10:56 AM
01/13/22 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by HardcoreB
Nice looking stuff Greg! There is a pic that shows the upper corners of the port outlet obstructed by the new flanges. I wouldn't overlook fixing that too. Thanks for sharing.

I bought a set of flanges pictured on page 1, posted by Jericogtx. Nice catch on the missmatch. I will have to fix that. Maybe flip the flanges to make sure they are symmetrical.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Header design, merge collectors? [Re: gregsdart] #3004832
01/13/22 11:16 AM
01/13/22 11:16 AM
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Flipping them is exactly what I thought I'd try first!

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