Torsion Bar Adjuster / Bump Stop
#2997894
12/23/21 02:46 PM
12/23/21 02:46 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 115 Tampa Bay
BadFishy
OP
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OP
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 115
Tampa Bay
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Hi, I’ve been trying to figure out why the driver side adjuster bolt is about an inch lower than the passenger side, and driver side wedge bump stop is right against the subframe? The passenger side wedge bump stop is 1/4” to the subframe.
Level floor. Original torsion bars. Adjuster bolts not stripped. 440, aluminum heads, intake manifold, water pump, battery relocated to trunk passenger side, headers.
Front end is 25” high at both front wheel openings. Rear passenger wheel openings are 25 1/2” high driver, 25” high passenger.
I had a PST front end kit installed a couple hundred miles ago, new front sway bar, tubular upper arms, and aligned, so many parts are new - but the adjuster and bump stop issue was the same before then.
See pics. I would appreciate any help and insight!
1971 Cuda, 440 custom-build
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Re: Torsion Bar Adjuster / Bump Stop
[Re: BadFishy]
#2997942
12/23/21 05:01 PM
12/23/21 05:01 PM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,777 ohio
ruderunner
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,777
ohio
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Tired bar on one side. Also ride height is checked at the control arms.
Angry white pureblood male
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Re: Torsion Bar Adjuster / Bump Stop
[Re: ruderunner]
#2997968
12/23/21 06:06 PM
12/23/21 06:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,465 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
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Posts: 27,465
So Cal
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It may be possible one torsion bar was not indexed into the LCA hex like the other.
25” to top of wheel lip is sorta low. What is you front tire size? The higher the wheel diameter, it raises the wheel ball joint.
So as you increase the diameter of the tire AND keep the chassis at the same height, the gap between the LCA bumper to frame get smaller.
Last edited by autoxcuda; 12/23/21 06:09 PM.
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Re: Torsion Bar Adjuster / Bump Stop
[Re: topside]
#2998013
12/23/21 09:12 PM
12/23/21 09:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,538 Freeport IL USA
poorboy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,538
Freeport IL USA
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I've been under a lot of torsion bar equipped Mopars, very few adjusting bolts have had the same number of threads showing between the bolt head and the adjustment anchor on both sides of the car. The purpose of the adjustment is to correct a minor incorrect level of the front of the car, measured at the bottom of the lower control arms at the lowest point on the control arms on a level surface. The threads on the adjusting bolt, and the height of the wheel opening are really poor points at which to check how level the lower control arms are, way too many variables involved.
Concern over a 1/4" height difference between the wheel opening on one side compared to the other side assumes the ground on which the car is sitting is perfectly level, the tape measure is perfectly straight vertical, and the both fenders are correctly positioned on the car. It is not unusual for the driver side to be adjusted slightly higher then the passenger side at astatic level to compensate for not having a driver sitting in the seat, the theory is, once the driver is in the seat, the car will sit level. Mopars of the performance era were designed with a panel tolerance of + or - a 1/4". Your measured difference is well within the factory tolerance.
Personally, I'd go with the ground wasn't level, or the tape measure wasn't straight, and no one is going to crawl under your car and count the number of threads on the torsion bar adjusting bolt sticking below your control arms. Then I'd move on to more important things. Gene
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Re: Torsion Bar Adjuster / Bump Stop
[Re: FY1 AAR]
#2998084
12/23/21 10:58 PM
12/23/21 10:58 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 115 Tampa Bay
BadFishy
OP
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OP
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Posts: 115
Tampa Bay
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First, thanks everyone for the help.
I’ve got the front intentionally at 25”, for a slight grade down from the rear. The well lips just hide the tops of the tires. F is 225/50/17 R is 255/50/17.
I’m thinking incorrect indexing is the most likely. The torsion bars were removed and reinstalled about 20 years ago at a shop, but frankly I don’t remember if that’s when I first noticed the issue or not. The only worn parts left to be considered for replacement are the torsion bars themselves. They are the 778 and 779 for the originally 383 car (440 now). 0.90 diameter. Correct sides.
Don’t like the bump stop being sandwiched. Limits the travel on one side.
May as well replace the bars. The current bars are 50 years old and prob not like being twisted to correct install. Likely some metal fatigue. I like the way the car rides currently, but wouldn’t mind a little stiffer. No potholes or rough roads where I cruise. Planning for the PST version - 20 degree clocking: 1.03" Torsion Bar Deluxe Kit - Polygraphite - B & E Body. Other than being a little lighter in the wallet, I don’t think I’ll be any worse off with new bars, that’s for sure.
1971 Cuda, 440 custom-build
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Re: Torsion Bar Adjuster / Bump Stop
[Re: BadFishy]
#2998100
12/24/21 01:51 AM
12/24/21 01:51 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,995 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,995
Oregon
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Could be several different things. Put the car up on the lift and pull the bars out and check it out. You're more likely to find the problem by looking at the parts. I doubt the bars are indexed wrong, probably just a weak bar.
Last edited by AndyF; 12/24/21 01:55 AM.
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Re: Torsion Bar Adjuster / Bump Stop
[Re: SportF]
#2998138
12/24/21 09:50 AM
12/24/21 09:50 AM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,777 ohio
ruderunner
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,777
ohio
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This ^
Can't be indexed wrong.
Angry white pureblood male
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Re: Torsion Bar Adjuster / Bump Stop
[Re: ruderunner]
#2998146
12/24/21 10:08 AM
12/24/21 10:08 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,706 North Dakota
6PakBee
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 10,706
North Dakota
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When you check the ride height it isn't just "measure to the floor". It's the differential measurement between basically the LCA bushing and the lower ball joint. There is a photo in the FSM that shows the locations.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Torsion Bar Adjuster / Bump Stop
[Re: BadFishy]
#2998155
12/24/21 10:50 AM
12/24/21 10:50 AM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,234 Looking for a way out of Middl...
IMGTX
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Looking for a way out of Middl...
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Start at the basics. Without anyone in the car at first. (Some people align a car with driver weight in the seat and that is fine but not for diagnostics.) Put it on a flat level floor. Measure from the ball joint on each side to the ground and from the bottom edge of the LCA hex socket to the floor. The difference is the adjustment height. Should be about 1-1/8" if stock. If it is not a significant difference between sides, and you have bumper distance/space issue, then you have issues with the bumpers not matching, or a bent arm or chasis etc. If you even out the height, and the bumper issue goes away but the bolt is excessively different, You have torsion bar issues. 2 bars of the same side in the car, old & saggy bars, bars on the wrong side, indexed incorrectly, etc. Some people will say that you can't index them wrong etc,, and they are correct in a perfect world, but I have seen many things that a mechanic should not be able to do, be done by bad mechanics. Never underestimate the ability of a bad mechanic to achieve unachievable heights or depths in stupidity. I know this because when I was younger and learning I did a lot of stupid stuff you shouldn't be able to do to a car. I did them quite well too.
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Re: Torsion Bar Adjuster / Bump Stop
[Re: SportF]
#2998204
12/24/21 01:14 PM
12/24/21 01:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,995 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
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Posts: 30,995
Oregon
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Gang, I've played around with a lot of different bars, but I don't think you could be off on the hex. That is 60 degrees and would probably show up on the adjust bolt at like two inches. I would like to hear from somebody to see if it has actually happened because in my experience you would never have enough adjustment to even bring the lower arm off the rubber stop. Yeah I agree. I'd have to see a video of someone installing a torsion bar off one hex before I believed it. I don't think there is enough travel in the lower control arm to be off one flat. If you switch bars side for side then that is half a hex and even that is tough to do. I tried to install bars on the wrong side once but could not do it due to lack of travel. I've heard of people having the bars on the wrong side so perhaps it can be done but it messes up the adjustment for sure. One of the torsion bar suppliers hired me a few years back to help them sort out a hex offset issue. As the torsion bars get bigger, the offset has to be carefully calculated or else the adjuster won't have the correct travel. The position of the hex needs to be held within a few degrees for the adjuster to work correctly so there is no way a big bar can be off by a flat or even a half flat.
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Re: Torsion Bar Adjuster / Bump Stop
[Re: AndyF]
#2998208
12/24/21 01:29 PM
12/24/21 01:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,465 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
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So Cal
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Gang, I've played around with a lot of different bars, but I don't think you could be off on the hex. That is 60 degrees and would probably show up on the adjust bolt at like two inches. I would like to hear from somebody to see if it has actually happened because in my experience you would never have enough adjustment to even bring the lower arm off the rubber stop. Yeah I agree. I'd have to see a video of someone installing a torsion bar off one hex before I believed it. I don't think there is enough travel in the lower control arm to be off one flat. If you switch bars side for side then that is half a hex and even that is tough to do. I tried to install bars on the wrong side once but could not do it due to lack of travel. I've heard of people having the bars on the wrong side so perhaps it can be done but it messes up the adjustment for sure. One of the torsion bar suppliers hired me a few years back to help them sort out a hex offset issue. As the torsion bars get bigger, the offset has to be carefully calculated or else the adjuster won't have the correct travel. The position of the hex needs to be held within a few degrees for the adjuster to work correctly so there is no way a big bar can be off by a flat or even a half flat. Yea, with big bars you don’t have that error margin. I agree it’s pretty tough to mess up with a stock bar. And the adjuster would be way in or way out and the ride height would be real low or high. I’ve see a car with the adjuster bolt completely out and the adjuster arm just sitting on the pad/nut. Either way, a hex issue it not going to fix his static bump stop to frame clearance. That is purely a function of ride height and tire height. So the OP needs to change one of those OR just put in a shorter bump stop. Most people set the ride height to the look they want. Typically that look is the body relative to the ground and/or tire. And then match that height side to side. Here’s a short bump stop you can buy and move on with your life. https://www.amazon.com/Energy-Suspe...&hvtargid=pla-569060105739&psc=1
Last edited by autoxcuda; 12/24/21 01:42 PM.
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Re: Torsion Bar Adjuster / Bump Stop
[Re: autoxcuda]
#2998224
12/24/21 02:58 PM
12/24/21 02:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 667 Los Osos, Ca
CKessel
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 667
Los Osos, Ca
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Check the sleeve in the k-frame where the lower arm shaft goes through. Maybe have issues with the weld or it cracked, both allowing it to spin.
Carl Kessel
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Re: Torsion Bar Adjuster / Bump Stop
[Re: CKessel]
#2998287
12/24/21 09:57 PM
12/24/21 09:57 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,653 Cut and Shoot, TX
kentj340
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,653
Cut and Shoot, TX
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This discussion reminds me that back in 1957 when, I guess, Chrysler's torsion bar front suspension was first introduced, there was a dealer's Plymouth running around town with only one front wheel, an obvious publicity and promotion stunt to get gawkers and generate new car sales. I saw the car with my own eyes making a turn at an intersection. Back then, the fall introduction of new car models was a very, very big deal. Somebody needs to copy this feat and post photos of the car turning a corner.
If you don't see two dolphins, you need a vacation.
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