440 new vibration after changing torque converter
#2995503
12/15/21 02:11 PM
12/15/21 02:11 PM
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Joined: Dec 2020
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San Antonio
Racer X
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1974 Roadrunner with 440 & 727. The old torque converter's hub was worn out and the pump seal wouldn't seal and one of the flexplate mount pads was stripped so I ordered a reman replacement. Replacement arrived and looked just like the old one with balance weights welded on each side of the drain plug. Installed it and noticed immediately a new vibration off idle. Don't have a tach but you don't have to give it much gas to feel it. May be happening at idle, but don't really feel anything until the RPMs go up. Under the hood at idle the engine sounds like a precision sewing machine and isn't shaking or moving at all. The converter works, car drives fine, no odd noises, just vibration. Everything rattles at certain RPMs... steering column, console, etc. What happened here? I am at a loss for how installing a weighted converter in place of a weighted converter can introduce such a dramatic vibration problem. Everything is stock... motor stock, original flexplate, etc. Very frustrating problem... was hoping to solve some problems and ended up with a worse one!  Any thoughts?
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Re: 440 new vibration after changing torque converter
[Re: NITROUSN]
#2995541
12/15/21 04:24 PM
12/15/21 04:24 PM
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San Antonio
Racer X
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What crank is in your car now? Cast or forged? What converter did you order? Sorry did not mention that specifically... The weighted converter implies that it is a cast crank 440 but a lot can happen over 47 years... It is still a cast crank with large damper and the original converter had the weights. Before the replacement the vibration was not present. The replacement was a reman from a local gear and drivetrain shop. "Precision" brand, which they sell a ton of. It is the correct one for the application based on the part number and also visual comparison of old and new.
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Re: 440 new vibration after changing torque converter
[Re: Racer X]
#2995548
12/15/21 04:52 PM
12/15/21 04:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda
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Converter snout welded on crooked or not concentric
Converter snout may have been turned undersize by rebuilder.
Drive shaft not reinstalled properly.
Last edited by GomangoCuda; 12/15/21 04:56 PM.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Re: 440 new vibration after changing torque converter
[Re: Moparteacher]
#2995579
12/15/21 06:11 PM
12/15/21 06:11 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
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God's Country Maryland
GODSCOUNTRY340
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What was worn out on the hub? If it was where the front bushing rides that bushing is most likely damaged, did you inspect it while you had it apart?
I love the smell of Deer guts in the morning, it smells like... VICTORY!
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Re: 440 new vibration after changing torque converter
[Re: GODSCOUNTRY340]
#2995592
12/15/21 06:38 PM
12/15/21 06:38 PM
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San Antonio
Racer X
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What was worn out on the hub? If it was where the front bushing rides that bushing is most likely damaged, did you inspect it while you had it apart? Trans is freshly rebuilt with all new bushings. Aside from not sealing properly, the old converter would have eventually tore up the bushing.
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Re: 440 new vibration after changing torque converter
[Re: GomangoCuda]
#2995593
12/15/21 06:40 PM
12/15/21 06:40 PM
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San Antonio
Racer X
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Converter snout welded on crooked or not concentric
Converter snout may have been turned undersize by rebuilder.
Drive shaft not reinstalled properly. Yes, I am concerned about defects from the remanufacturer. I would hope they test things before sending them out, but you never know these days... Converter has a warranty but I am not looking forward to taking it back out again. Driveshaft is not a factor... vibration is present in neutral or park as well as when driving.
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Re: 440 new vibration after changing torque converter
[Re: Moparteacher]
#2995596
12/15/21 06:46 PM
12/15/21 06:46 PM
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San Antonio
Racer X
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If memory serves me correctly, there are two different counter weighted torque converters for externally balanced 440s. The weights are not the same. One is for a cast crank with LY rods; the second is for forged cranks with HD (aka six-pack) rods. Both engines came externally balance thus the weights on the TC, but different weight requirements.
Are the weights on the new torque converter the same width, length and height as the weights on the old torque converter?
I may be wrong on this, I need to find my Direct Connection Engine book. You may find more info in the Moparts Tech Archives. My understanding is the single, large "butterfly" weight came along later. Mine has the two smaller rectangular weights, one on each side of the drain plug. Old converter was like that, and so is the replacement. The weights appear to be the same size on both, but I can measure to be sure. One of the weights on the new converter is touching the flex plate pad, as far away from the drain plug as you can get it. The other weight is close to the drain plug, as is both of the weights on the old converter. Is this setup sensitive enough to notice that one weight being that far to the side? It doesn't look the the remanufacturer moved the weights, so this one may have been there from day one (ie., chrysler put it there). That is really the only anomaly between the two converters....
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Re: 440 new vibration after changing torque converter
[Re: Racer X]
#2995611
12/15/21 07:05 PM
12/15/21 07:05 PM
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Boise
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If memory serves me correctly, there are two different counter weighted torque converters for externally balanced 440s. The weights are not the same. One is for a cast crank with LY rods; the second is for forged cranks with HD (aka six-pack) rods. Both engines came externally balance thus the weights on the TC, but different weight requirements.
Are the weights on the new torque converter the same width, length and height as the weights on the old torque converter?
I may be wrong on this, I need to find my Direct Connection Engine book. You may find more info in the Moparts Tech Archives. My understanding is the single, large "butterfly" weight came along later. Mine has the two smaller rectangular weights, one on each side of the drain plug. Old converter was like that, and so is the replacement. The weights appear to be the same size on both, but I can measure to be sure. One of the weights on the new converter is touching the flex plate pad, as far away from the drain plug as you can get it. The other weight is close to the drain plug, as is both of the weights on the old converter. Is this setup sensitive enough to notice that one weight being that far to the side? It doesn't look the the remanufacturer moved the weights, so this one may have been there from day one (ie., chrysler put it there). That is really the only anomaly between the two converters.... Well, I can't find my book, but the all-knowing internet says all the externally balnaced big blocks and six-pack rod equipped 440s used the same weights placed in the same location with the later model using a single weight, but the small block 360 converters used weights that were spread apart a bit more from the drain plug and of a slightly different weight. Is it possible you received a small block 360 torque converter? Maybe this will shed some light? https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/torque-converter-weight-conundrum.397714/
Last edited by Moparteacher; 12/15/21 07:08 PM.
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Re: 440 new vibration after changing torque converter
[Re: Moparteacher]
#2995617
12/15/21 07:27 PM
12/15/21 07:27 PM
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Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 7
San Antonio
Racer X
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If memory serves me correctly, there are two different counter weighted torque converters for externally balanced 440s. The weights are not the same. One is for a cast crank with LY rods; the second is for forged cranks with HD (aka six-pack) rods. Both engines came externally balance thus the weights on the TC, but different weight requirements.
Are the weights on the new torque converter the same width, length and height as the weights on the old torque converter?
I may be wrong on this, I need to find my Direct Connection Engine book. You may find more info in the Moparts Tech Archives. My understanding is the single, large "butterfly" weight came along later. Mine has the two smaller rectangular weights, one on each side of the drain plug. Old converter was like that, and so is the replacement. The weights appear to be the same size on both, but I can measure to be sure. One of the weights on the new converter is touching the flex plate pad, as far away from the drain plug as you can get it. The other weight is close to the drain plug, as is both of the weights on the old converter. Is this setup sensitive enough to notice that one weight being that far to the side? It doesn't look the the remanufacturer moved the weights, so this one may have been there from day one (ie., chrysler put it there). That is really the only anomaly between the two converters.... Well, I can't find my book, but the all-knowing internet says all the externally balnaced big blocks and six-pack rod equipped 440s used the same weights placed in the same location with the later model using a single weight, but the small block 360 converters used weights that were spread apart a bit more from the drain plug and of a slightly different weight. Is it possible you received a small block 360 torque converter? Maybe this will shed some light? https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/torque-converter-weight-conundrum.397714/ I think we have our smoking gun... I'll post up a couple pictures later but when you mentioned "slightly different weight" that got me thinking.... I pulled out the digital caliper and checked... the weights are much smaller on the new converter--- OLD: 1.42 long, .78 wide, .25 thick NEW: 1.07 long, .51 wide, .138 thick Significant difference. I would think that would account for the vibration. I didn't look at them that closely before because I did not expect that there are difference size weights for the big blocks. I just verified that there were two weights. So perhaps they did give me a small block converter? I'd really hate to take it apart again and wait for them to replace the converter. Does anyone see any issues with knocking the larger weights off of the old converter and replacing the small ones in the locations there were in on the old converter? That is something I can do with it still in the car...
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Re: 440 new vibration after changing torque converter
[Re: Racer X]
#2996272
12/17/21 09:31 PM
12/17/21 09:31 PM
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Omaha Ne
TJP
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Re: 440 new vibration after changing torque converter
[Re: Moparteacher]
#2996350
12/18/21 10:26 AM
12/18/21 10:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,702
North Dakota
6PakBee
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If memory serves me correctly, there are two different counter weighted torque converters for externally balanced 440s. The weights are not the same. One is for a cast crank with LY rods; the second is for forged cranks with HD (aka six-pack) rods. Both engines came externally balance thus the weights on the TC, but different weight requirements.
Are the weights on the new torque converter the same width, length and height as the weights on the old torque converter?
I may be wrong on this, I need to find my Direct Connection Engine book. You may find more info in the Moparts Tech Archives. The externally balanced cast crank engine has a harmonic damper that says something like "Use W/Cast Crank Only" and the harmonic damper for the externally balanced forged crank engine has nothing.
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Re: 440 new vibration after changing torque converter
[Re: Racer X]
#2996550
12/18/21 07:54 PM
12/18/21 07:54 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
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Michigan
A727Tflite
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1974 Roadrunner with 440 & 727. The old torque converter's hub was worn out and the pump seal wouldn't seal and one of the flexplate mount pads was stripped so I ordered a reman replacement. Replacement arrived and looked just like the old one with balance weights welded on each side of the drain plug. Installed it and noticed immediately a new vibration off idle. Don't have a tach but you don't have to give it much gas to feel it. May be happening at idle, but don't really feel anything until the RPMs go up. Under the hood at idle the engine sounds like a precision sewing machine and isn't shaking or moving at all. The converter works, car drives fine, no odd noises, just vibration. Everything rattles at certain RPMs... steering column, console, etc. What happened here? I am at a loss for how installing a weighted converter in place of a weighted converter can introduce such a dramatic vibration problem. Everything is stock... motor stock, original flexplate, etc. Very frustrating problem... was hoping to solve some problems and ended up with a worse one! Any thoughts? Print says your converter is from a 1970/1971 440 6 Pack.
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Re: 440 new vibration after changing torque converter
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2996678
12/19/21 11:14 AM
12/19/21 11:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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westerly, ri. usa
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looks like new convetor was rebalanced, might be wrong?
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