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Re: Need some 4speed help [Re: 8urvette] #2989949
11/28/21 07:17 PM
11/28/21 07:17 PM
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Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy Offline
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Originally Posted by 8urvette
Okay, if i need to replace parts... WOuld i be able to save the cost of replacing the gears by going with a faceplated gear from liberty? Do they just remove the synchro teeth and weld on their part? What about the sliders? Is theirs a custom made one or is it machined from a stock unit?


You don't need any gears just get a rebuild kit with new brass and you should be good to go for about $200 . Face-Plate from Liberty's would run you about $75 per gear and I think the sliders would run about $125-$150 each and get ready to wait 2-6 months to get your gears back.
Here's pic of my face-plated Richmond race box
Gus beer

my richmond.JPG
Last edited by fourgearsavoy; 11/28/21 07:20 PM.

64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
Re: Need some 4speed help [Re: 8urvette] #2989952
11/28/21 07:26 PM
11/28/21 07:26 PM
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Machined from a new piece, I assume. Yes, they macjine off the 36 clutching teeth and weld a Pro Ring in it's place. Keep in mind a Pro Shift conversion requires a fast and hard shift every shift, and it's a little noisey.

You can opt for a Slick Shift Conversion, and can even do the work yourself. Replace the brass with new, Use a die grinder with carbide bit or stone and remove every other tooth on 2nd gear speed gear. Also remove every other tooth on 1-2 slider just on the 2nd gear side. Leave 1st gear side of slider alone. Grind teeth off deep enough to clear speed gear teeth. when speed gear is droppped onto slider. About 5/8 " deep.

Reassemble with all the normal parts including keys, tension springs, and new brass synchro ring. You can gring off the 36 clutching teeth on the brass for an even faster shift.

If the speed gear is boogered and the slider is boogered then eliminating every other tooth makes shift easy and fast. Keeping the brass synchro ring, keys and tension springs allows a normal shift without the bang.

The only downside is a small clunk-clunk when off then on the gas.

It;s a cheap and easy fix if you can live with the clunk-clunk.

You should also look closely at the shift fork and the groove in the slider. If either is notched then there's no fix for that except replacement. Wear in the slider groove and on the shift fork is very common when the brass synchro ring is wasted.

Re: Need some 4speed help [Re: Moparteacher] #2989993
11/28/21 10:11 PM
11/28/21 10:11 PM
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wine country
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8urvette Offline OP
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Since I have your attention here are a few more pics of the sliders and the gears. What do you think?? Since I have been looking at new pieces online i am seeing how much wear is on these parts. Just would like someone else to chime in on them as well.


My thought is to replace the sliders, synchros and leave the gears.

2.jpg3.jpg4.jpg5.jpg
Last edited by 8urvette; 11/28/21 10:13 PM.
Re: Need some 4speed help [Re: 8urvette] #2989995
11/28/21 10:12 PM
11/28/21 10:12 PM
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here are a few more.

6.jpg7.jpg8.jpg
Re: Need some 4speed help [Re: 8urvette] #2990004
11/28/21 10:59 PM
11/28/21 10:59 PM
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Missouri
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I missed in your original post that it has a dual disc clutch. So how much do these disc's weigh compared to a stock single disc clutch? The reason you have to have a synro assembly is because all the gears are in mesh with the counter gear, and all spinning at different speeds, because every gear has a different ratio. So when you step on the clutch and shift gears the brass ring grabs the cone and slows down or speeds up the gear you are selecting, and then the teeth on the gear itself mesh with the slider which locks the gear to the mainshaft and transfers the power. So the weight and inertia the clutch disc really effects how hard the brass rings have to work. On most dual disc systems, I have messed with you do not need to use a clutch pedal to shift them, the clutch is only used to launch the car. You may want to call the company that built the clutch and just ask them if the inertia of the discs at speed is causing your problem.

Re: Need some 4speed help [Re: 8urvette] #2990046
11/29/21 02:12 AM
11/29/21 02:12 AM
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The only reusable part in all those pics would be the 1st gear speed gear. The other three gears are either scrap metal or a candidate for Pro Shift, Face Plate, modification. The sliders are scrap metal.

What do the shift forks look like?

What does the cluster gear bearing shaft look like? Any grooves or pitting?

What do the synchro keys look like? The crown in the midle of the six keys should not have any notching.

What do the hubs look like? Are the grooves without notches or steps?

Your options are many, unfortunately, they are all costly.

Re: Need some 4speed help [Re: Moparteacher] #2990069
11/29/21 08:24 AM
11/29/21 08:24 AM
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MI, usa
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My sliders and hubs that looked that bad. I filed each tooth to remove burrs. Then repointed the ends with a Dremel cut off wheel. It's the best shifting 833 I've ever driven. The thought is because there is extra clearance between the slider teeth. Been that way now for 10,000 miles. It runs a Center Force dual friction 10" single disc cutch.
Doug

Re: Need some 4speed help [Re: dvw] #2990277
11/29/21 08:45 PM
11/29/21 08:45 PM
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well heck...

Not sure how i want to proceed. Spoke to Liberty today, very helpful. They can face plate my trans and do their sliders etc for about 1,000. However, they do not recommend me doing this with my 540" motor, they think it will not live long behind the motor.

So do i try to get it back to stockish? put in an automatic? Upgrade to something else?


UGH!!!

Re: Need some 4speed help [Re: 8urvette] #2990334
11/29/21 11:10 PM
11/29/21 11:10 PM
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540ci is a lot for any a833, even an 18 spline.

Maybe their concern was more about the choice of trans and less about the modifications.

With the torque a 540 produces it's likely 3rd gear is going to be nonexistent given enough traction. You'll shear the teeth off 3rd gear speed gear and cluster gear before you break the modified parts.

A $1000. quote sounds like it includes disassembly and reassembly. The website quotes $120 per gear (3x$120=$360) to faceplace or Pro Ring and then the cost of two modified sliders. I would expect $600-$700 without the additional labor to build.
Some options: Jerico 4 or 5 speed, G-force 4 or 5 speed (I have a Long H-pattern shifter for the 4-speed for sale), Tremec TKX, Liberty Extreme-T, Passon, or maybe something from a Vipor T-56 with upgrades, etc.

Last edited by Moparteacher; 11/29/21 11:24 PM.
Re: Need some 4speed help [Re: Moparteacher] #2990345
11/29/21 11:43 PM
11/29/21 11:43 PM
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wine country
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Liv=berty wasnt saying their mods wouldnt hold up, just the trans will fail.
the 1000$ was parts alone.

Can i keep my foot out of it enough to mke it live is the real question now.

Re: Need some 4speed help [Re: 8urvette] #2990367
11/30/21 01:50 AM
11/30/21 01:50 AM
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Washington
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I'm not worried about the 18spl 833 behind a NA 540, my concern is the twin disc clutch. Not only its ability to hurt the transmission with likely more clamp pressure than you need, but also the added wear/tear on the brass from slowing an extra disc down. Faceplating fixes the brass problem, a ClutchTamer can fix the likely clamp pressure issue.

Grant

Re: Need some 4speed help [Re: lancer493] #2990371
11/30/21 02:18 AM
11/30/21 02:18 AM
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Rogue River, OR
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In my experience the pro shift box requires a quick hard shift no matter the rpm. On the other hand my face plated box can be driven lazy (shift hard and fast - crunch) or pay a little attention and speed match it like a dump truck. After several fluid experiments I have stuck with Redline MTL it seems to do the beet job cushion the face plates when you get out of the throttle and the slop is taken up.

I think getting the clutch to slip would help a lot. If you are going to beat on it go find a g force 101a 4 speed and call it good.

Way back in 2014 my 9310 face plated gear set was over $1400. If I was doing it over I'd have put the money towards a g force 101a. It is more cost effective starting with a race box instead od converting a 45 year old 4 speed tto male ot live.



Re: Need some 4speed help [Re: Jeremiah] #2990446
11/30/21 11:42 AM
11/30/21 11:42 AM
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$1000 just to face plate a few gears? For $3000 I'll sell you a Jerico DR4, with a LONG vertigate shifter, ready to run...


69 GTX 68 Road Runner
Re: Need some 4speed help [Re: JERICOGTX] #2990449
11/30/21 11:51 AM
11/30/21 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by JERICOGTX
$1000 just to face plate a few gears? For $3000 I'll sell you a Jerico DR4, with a LONG vertigate shifter, ready to run...


Going to an automatic Jeff?? laugh2 wave


The end is near.....
Re: Need some 4speed help [Re: tboomer] #2990491
11/30/21 01:44 PM
11/30/21 01:44 PM
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Park Forest, IL
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Originally Posted by tboomer
Originally Posted by JERICOGTX
$1000 just to face plate a few gears? For $3000 I'll sell you a Jerico DR4, with a LONG vertigate shifter, ready to run...


Going to an automatic Jeff?? laugh2 wave


PEW PEW! Shots fired! boogie


"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
Re: Need some 4speed help [Re: slantzilla] #2990557
11/30/21 04:44 PM
11/30/21 04:44 PM
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South Park, Pa.
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My humble opinion, new brass rings, new slider, dump the clutch and go with a single disc system. Make sure your shift forks are in good shape. With regards to the main gears, dress up the cones with emery cloth. 80 grit is best.


4 speed street legal. Best time 10.99 @ 124 mph on 93 octane pump gas @ 3926# total weight
Re: Need some 4speed help [Re: 68LAR] #2990634
11/30/21 08:41 PM
11/30/21 08:41 PM
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wine country
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I spoke to Dan at brewers, He suggested I send in my parts, they will look them over, dress up what they can and replce what needs to be replaced. I described some of the damage and he thinks they some of it can be saved.
So I will pack up some gears, synchros and sliders.

I am seeing this twin disc may not be the best option for me. Guess I need to find out of the flywheel will work with other clutches now too.. UGH!!! It was made by american powertrain for their twin disc setup they no longer make.

Re: Need some 4speed help [Re: tboomer] #2990755
12/01/21 06:56 AM
12/01/21 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by tboomer
Originally Posted by JERICOGTX
$1000 just to face plate a few gears? For $3000 I'll sell you a Jerico DR4, with a LONG vertigate shifter, ready to run...


Going to an automatic Jeff?? laugh2 wave


No. I bought a Clutchless Liberty.


69 GTX 68 Road Runner
Re: Need some 4speed help [Re: JERICOGTX] #2992061
12/04/21 06:31 PM
12/04/21 06:31 PM
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western iowa
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I had liberty, faceplate, synchronize 1st gear, and side plate modification.

I believe it was right around $1300, that was in 2014, so probably more now. Was a lot of fun behind my 431. Didn't have it long. Ended up going bigger motor, so ended up selling that setup off, and going auto. spank

To do over again, it been a jerico or a gforce.

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