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Super duper MPG 6.4 help! #2940824
07/07/21 12:15 PM
07/07/21 12:15 PM
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Kalispell Mt.
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HotRodDave Offline OP
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So as everyone knows I always like to max out the possible MPG when building an engine for myself, well I am putting together an engine for my 2011 ram 2500. What I have for it is a BGE short block 5.7 eagle cam and eagle heads, intake, exhaust... I am thinking about cheating and using one layer of the factory head gasket (about .010 thick) to bump the compression and quench a little more (11.75 VS 11.16) . My current truck has a SRT8 6.4 short block and cam with eagle heads (12.3 compression) and runs fine on premium (.050ish quench) but the bigger cam is obviously bleeding a little more compression that the 5.7 cam I want to use in this one to bring the RPM down a tad. My question is what is the maximum advanced intake closing point ABC position of both cams? I can't really find cold hard specs for either, the compression calculators want to know the .050 intake closing plus add 15 degrees. I want to make sure I end up at the same or very slightly less dynamic compression in the BGE engine with the 5.7 cam as I have in the SRT engine with the SRT cam.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Super duper MPG 6.4 help! [Re: HotRodDave] #2940928
07/07/21 06:00 PM
07/07/21 06:00 PM
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HotRodDave Offline OP
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With these specs on these 2 cams what degree is the intake valve closed down to .050?

215/221 @ .050"
.353"/.333" lobe lift
.574"/.541" valve lift
121 LSA
108 ICL

186/208 @ .050"
499/493
115LSA


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Super duper MPG 6.4 help! [Re: HotRodDave] #2940962
07/07/21 07:58 PM
07/07/21 07:58 PM
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KATY TEXAS
csk Offline
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this is the 1st one , need the icl for the 2nd one

Screenshot (132).png
Last edited by csk; 07/07/21 07:59 PM.

1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 3.54gear A518 OD 4100lb,11.04@123 full street car trim


Re: Super duper MPG 6.4 help! [Re: csk] #2940974
07/07/21 08:23 PM
07/07/21 08:23 PM
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HotRodDave Offline OP
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Thanks!

I found 101 ICL on the second one


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Super duper MPG 6.4 help! [Re: HotRodDave] #2940980
07/07/21 08:33 PM
07/07/21 08:33 PM
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KATY TEXAS
csk Offline
top fuel
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#2

Screenshot (133).png

1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 3.54gear A518 OD 4100lb,11.04@123 full street car trim


Re: Super duper MPG 6.4 help! [Re: csk] #2940983
07/07/21 08:44 PM
07/07/21 08:44 PM
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HotRodDave Offline OP
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Very awesome thanks!

So it seems the dynamic compression will only be .1 lower with the stock head gaskets in my new engine than my old engine. If I went with the single steel shim head gasket I would be nearly .5 higher and since I am borderline on my compression already and now with less overlap with the 5.7 cam to dilute the charge I will be using the stock gaskets.

I really wish we had e-85 local, I would have put in a set of SRT pistons AND run the thin head gasket.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Super duper MPG 6.4 help! [Re: HotRodDave] #2941318
07/08/21 05:40 PM
07/08/21 05:40 PM
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HotRodDave Offline OP
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So I got it about ready to fire up and had to take a break, the final combo for now is basically a BGE short block, 5.7 MDS cam, Eagle heads slightly ported, fully radiused and mirror pollished exhaust valves to help keep them from being a hot spot in the chamber and the intakes got an "almost" regular 3 angle valve job but I made the cut on the outer edge of the valve (the one parallel to the stem) as clean and sharp as possible and is actually about 5* off parallel to the stem to make the edge even sharper to help break up fuel droplets as it passes over. I chickened out on the single layer head gasket mostly because I think I would just have a little too much cylinder pressure for pump fuel with the small cam, I used a factory 6.4 head gasket.

I will keep bothering the local gas stations to start carrying e-85, if they ever do it then I will swap in SRT8 pistons and the thin head gasket... or maybe build a 5.7 about 14 to 1 with early 5.7 pistons and milled eagle heads!


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Super duper MPG 6.4 help! [Re: HotRodDave] #2941504
07/09/21 11:25 AM
07/09/21 11:25 AM
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HotRodDave Offline OP
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Well I been driving it last night and this morning and dang it is smooth, torquey and very throttle responsive. Fuel trim seems to be needing to add a lot of fuel, I have seen it near 25% a lot but has not set any lean codes "yet", I have a set of SRT8 injectors I may throw on to see if that helps keep it closer.

It has 3/4 tank of who knows what kind of fuel that is probably a year or two old (I bought it 6 months ago and it looked like it had been sitting a long time even then) but no knock sensor activity at all so maybe I could have gotten away with more compression. It runs very smooth even with old gas. I will run this tank out and run it with fresh fuel before postin any MPG results.

For a huge truck it has lots of TQ, crew cab 8 foot bed 4X4 3.73 gears and limited slip rear and a bed full of firewood right now and no problem barking the big 20" tires on dry pavement. There is a lot more TQ down low that the SRT8 in my 1500 but not as much at higher RPM.

Did I mention this thing is extremely smooth? With my head under the hood at idle it is smooth like a lexus V8, very weird, not even the slightest quiver.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Super duper MPG 6.4 help! [Re: HotRodDave] #2941876
07/10/21 05:06 PM
07/10/21 05:06 PM
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HotRodDave Offline OP
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I don't know if anyone is reading these or not butt I did get lean on both banks codes but the trim was very close on both sides so I put in a set or 392SRT8 injectors and that brought the trim numbers down a ton and made it even more responsive, it will flat go sideways with the 8 foot bed full of firewood!


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Super duper MPG 6.4 help! [Re: HotRodDave] #2941962
07/11/21 06:26 AM
07/11/21 06:26 AM
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USA
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360view Offline
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Originally Posted by HotRodDave
I don't know if anyone is reading these or not butt I did get lean on both banks codes but the trim !


You have at least one reader.
smile

Bank to bank trim is an improvement but I wish there was a way to dial it in cylinder by cylinder, especially at highway cruise part throttle.

You changed 8 injector to get “in the ballpark.”
It would be good for MPG to give each cylinder the capacity injector it needs.

Having used an un-lit propane torch to find vacuum leaks,
I have wondered in the past whether adding a cheap flow gauge on a propane bottle, then tapping a small test port into each runner to add a measured stream of extra fuel when at highway cruise would allow finding rich or lean cylinders. Keep increasing propane flow until that bank’s Oxygen sensor registers a change.

Having a threaded test port on a individual runner also makes in possible to screw in a “ Flow restricter” to do the opposite: reduce airflow a bit to balance AFR in each cylinder.

Getting each cylinder near to 14.7 AFR would help MPG,
but taking all cylinders to 21 AFR would improve MPG even more.
Remember at +20 AFR tendency to ping or detonate goes WAY DOWN, just like running AFR below 10 suppresses pinging.

Re: Super duper MPG 6.4 help! [Re: HotRodDave] #2941999
07/11/21 10:23 AM
07/11/21 10:23 AM
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Mesa , Az
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Originally Posted by HotRodDave
I don't know if anyone is reading these or not butt I did get lean on both banks codes but the trim was very close on both sides so I put in a set or 392SRT8 injectors and that brought the trim numbers down a ton and made it even more responsive, it will flat go sideways with the 8 foot bed full of firewood!



I'm reading your post, I just don't know what to make of them. I do enjoy the information. What do you use to tune everything? I do have custom tune on my 12 durango but I feel like it could use some help.


70 Challenger
1960 Town Wagon P Pump 24v cummins project
06 Mega 3500 Drw 2wd
12 Durango R/T
Re: Super duper MPG 6.4 help! [Re: Jambbii] #2942026
07/11/21 12:13 PM
07/11/21 12:13 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,462
KATY TEXAS
csk Offline
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I read them


1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 3.54gear A518 OD 4100lb,11.04@123 full street car trim


Re: Super duper MPG 6.4 help! [Re: 360view] #2942157
07/11/21 07:55 PM
07/11/21 07:55 PM
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Atlanta, GA
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mgoblue9798 Offline
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Originally Posted by 360view
Originally Posted by HotRodDave
I don't know if anyone is reading these or not butt I did get lean on both banks codes but the trim !


You have at least one reader.
smile

Bank to bank trim is an improvement but I wish there was a way to dial it in cylinder by cylinder, especially at highway cruise part throttle.

You changed 8 injector to get “in the ballpark.”
It would be good for MPG to give each cylinder the capacity injector it needs.

Having used an un-lit propane torch to find vacuum leaks,
I have wondered in the past whether adding a cheap flow gauge on a propane bottle, then tapping a small test port into each runner to add a measured stream of extra fuel when at highway cruise would allow finding rich or lean cylinders. Keep increasing propane flow until that bank’s Oxygen sensor registers a change.

Having a threaded test port on a individual runner also makes in possible to screw in a “ Flow restricter” to do the opposite: reduce airflow a bit to balance AFR in each cylinder.

Getting each cylinder near to 14.7 AFR would help MPG,
but taking all cylinders to 21 AFR would improve MPG even more.


Remember at +20 AFR tendency to ping or detonate goes WAY DOWN, just like running AFR below 10 suppresses pinging.




If you are running headers, you could use a temp sensor gun to identify lean cylinders. Lean ones would be hotter. Could also weld bungs into each tube to test with wideband AFR gauge set up.

Re: Super duper MPG 6.4 help! [Re: HotRodDave] #2942158
07/11/21 07:59 PM
07/11/21 07:59 PM
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Atlanta, GA
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As usual I am reading HRD. Always appreciate the out of the box thinking to get the most out of factory parts. It is what hot rodding is all about.

Re: Super duper MPG 6.4 help! [Re: mgoblue9798] #2951983
08/09/21 09:21 AM
08/09/21 09:21 AM
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Florida
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Hey Dave,

Following along, tried to send PM but your mailbox is full

Re: Super duper MPG 6.4 help! [Re: BDW] #2957617
08/26/21 12:38 PM
08/26/21 12:38 PM
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HotRodDave Offline OP
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I have not done any empty testing with it yet, loaned it out before I got to fill it and check it, they put some gas in and screwed up my numbers, so far the only solid numbers I have got was pulling an 8000LB skid steer one way on a 20ft deck over flatbed and a 1/2 ton 4x4 2011 ram the other way and got 11MPG so I was a little disapointed with that but the TQ pulling the big hills was very nice. It never triggered any knock sensor activity on the 89 octane I filled it with before I left.

On a side note I used it to haul a 500 gallon water tank when fighting the forest fire here and when the tank was full it only squated about 1/2 inch and still rode very stiff, parked next to a single wheel one ton 18 ram diesel and noticed someone has added thicker leafs than his truck has and air bags, I have no idea what they were doing with this truck but evidently something very heavy.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Super duper MPG 6.4 help! [Re: HotRodDave] #2979947
10/30/21 03:06 PM
10/30/21 03:06 PM
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Another update, finnaly got to make a round trip on the highway with the truck basically unloaded, 18.5 MPG or about 2 mpg less than my 1/2 ton with a 6.4 SRT8 would have gotten on the same trip. It never pings audibly or on the knock sensors in the data stream even on 87 octane and heavy loads where the SRT8 would rattle on anything less than quality premium fuel.

The 1/2 ton had 3.55 gears, less weight, less aeromatic drag, more compression, more cam and MDS

I really wish I would have run single layer real thin head gaskets to get more compression but it runs really nice as is. Much more low speed TQ with less high speed passing power.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Super duper MPG 6.4 help! [Re: HotRodDave] #2982255
11/05/21 11:18 PM
11/05/21 11:18 PM
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Central IL
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Trojmn Offline
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Originally Posted by HotRodDave
It never pings audibly or on the knock sensors in the data stream


What computer are you running? What tuning if any? That reads like possibly something is at least logging data?

Re: Super duper MPG 6.4 help! [Re: Trojmn] #2982368
11/06/21 12:10 PM
11/06/21 12:10 PM
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HotRodDave Offline OP
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I'm running the stock 5.7 computer and watching the live data stream on a regular scanner. I had to run 6.4 SRT8 injectors to get enough fuel with the 5.7 computer, it kept setting lean codes before that.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Super duper MPG 6.4 help! [Re: HotRodDave] #2982865
11/07/21 05:48 PM
11/07/21 05:48 PM
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If you dont have one/two already, I'd get at least one wide-band. I've used Innovate motorsports programmable* LC1 before to replace upstream narrow band sensors and also data log. What this will help even without ECM tuning is determining exactly where open loop is AND because its a heavy truck, where COT (catalytic over temp) is. If you have access to tuning software you can find out your target AFR... hint it almost certainly is not 14.7:1. In 2003-2009(?) NGC computers it is something like ~14.4. Moving that up will increase MPG, note the LC1 can do that even if you cannot tune the PCM.

Its been a few years, I have *no idea* about 6000lb truck tuning but the scheme on about every vehicle under heavy load that i had a wide-band in will eventually start dumping fuel to cool off the cat and keep it from melting. I don't know what wizardy they do with your gen computer these days but I'd imagine a heavy truck gets into openloop quite often and when towing probably can get into COT often. You can see this on a large hill with a wide-band 02 sensor output where your cruising at part throttle closed loop at the target AFR, then as throttle increases (TPS v) the computer will switch to open loop tables and there will be a noticeable drop down to 12-13AFR for a period of time. With enough load for long enough and then BAM suddenly drop AFR to 10:1 or richer (COT) until you let off the enough on the throttle. Knowing those points that can get you a couple MPG just by changing your foot habits. I suspect you are getting into open loop a bunch and thats were the tune will help.

Last edited by Trojmn; 11/07/21 05:49 PM.
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