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Steering / Alignment Issue #2972982
10/11/21 11:35 AM
10/11/21 11:35 AM
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Kentucky, USA
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RoadrunnerCN Offline OP
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1970 Plymouth Satellite, 318 c.i. A/C car with A/C removed. Same wheels/tires since 2014 BF Goodrich T/A white letter radials. Put about 700 miles a year on the car. Last alignment was 2017. Car has tracked down the road fine until....about a month ago at a car show about an hour from home I started feeling like the front end was squirrelly at 60 mph. It had rained that morning so I wasn't sure if that had anything to do with it. Rain stopped when I got to the show. On way home with dry roads, it was squealing like a pig going straight down the road. Stopped and looked at the front end. Both front tires were leaning out at the top (or in at the bottom)...crazy lean. SO, since the front end steering parts had never been changed and though I didn't hit any hard bumps, etc. I thought well, maybe it is time to invest in new steering parts before getting realigned. Purchased: Pitman Arm, Front Upper Control Arm Bushings and Eccentric Bolts, Front Tie Rod Adjusting Sleeves, Idler Arm, Front Outer Tie Rod end, Front Inner Tie Rod End, Lower Control Arm Bushings. Replaced and had to adjust one of the tortion bars (passenger side was low - no "rake" to the car...basically straight.) Took it back to the alignment shop (local Tire Discounters who has a Mopar guy with three old Mopars and who has guided his tech's through the process before with me...helpful). Realigned. Drove it. Squealing like a pig. Took it back. They said it wasn't hardly out. Realigned, had THEM drive it around the lot. Squealed. Front tires are diff size than rear so only thing I could do it swap tires side to side in the front. They made an adjustment to the alignment based on old Mopar guy's suggestion (think it was to change the toe-in/out just a hair) and drove it home. Let go of the wheel. Drove for a whole 1/8 of a mile without fading left or right. Seems like it goes down the road fine. No tire lean. Squealed a little in turns, but they said at tire store that front tires were worn from driving it the way I did (had to get if home from car show) and that they might just need to be driven for 500 miles before wearing back down. OK...I think it must just be the tires at this point. Drove to a car show Sunday (yesterday). Maybe 20 miles one way so 40 miles total. Squealing terribly by the time I got home. Was not a fun drive. Can't be just the tires because got tire lean (leaning out at the top) when I got home. Frustrating. So, something besides the normal adjusting that goes on during an alignment has to be loose, but what could it be to cause such a tire lean? What can I check? I can take it back and they can fix the caster/camber, but they already did that...twice...and it isn't holding. I know a lot about some things, but not this. Help me out. What should I do next? One thought was to pull the tires off my buddy's '73 Charger (same bolt pattern) and put it on the front of my car. This should tell me how much of it is the tires, but it CAN'T be just the tires because of the lean. Help me out! Any suggestions are appreciated. Sometimes it is so frustrating to have repeated issues on something that SHOULD be so simple. Thanks. Chris.

Re: Steering / Alignment Issue [Re: RoadrunnerCN] #2972987
10/11/21 11:45 AM
10/11/21 11:45 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,064
West Plains, MO
DrCharles Offline
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I suspect your eccentrics are moving around... maybe not tightened enough to keep them in place? Or stripped/damaged hardware? work

p.s. please use paragraphs, it makes your post much easier to read laugh

Re: Steering / Alignment Issue [Re: RoadrunnerCN] #2972992
10/11/21 11:54 AM
10/11/21 11:54 AM
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Posts: 11,317
Looking for a way out of Middl...
IMGTX Offline
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Did you check the mounts for the lower control arm?

It is common for the mounting tube for the LCA stud to break loose in the K frame.

Did you replace the Strut Rod Bushings?

I didn't see it on the list but you may have considered it part of the LCA bushings.

How are the frame rails and inner fenders? Our old beasts frame rails like to rust out especially under the battery and under the floorboards.
Look for cracks in the inner fenders, a sign of too much body flex because of frame rail failure.

Hope it helps.

Re: Steering / Alignment Issue [Re: IMGTX] #2973027
10/11/21 01:05 PM
10/11/21 01:05 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
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north of coder
moparx Offline
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were the eccentric bolts for the upper control arms replaced ? if so, do the cams fit the brackets tight, or are they sloppy in the brackets ?
are the cam brackets straight, or are they bent or beat up some ?
i have seen replacement eccentric bolts that the cams were smaller than the originals, and while they would work to set the alignment, the alignment would not hold because the cams would eventually shift around because the diameter of the cam was smaller than the bracket.
i know it sounds impossible, but i chased that deal for quite a while. no matter how tight the nut was tightened, the alignment would last for a little while, then change for no apparent reason.
when the cam bolt finally broke trying to tighten it up super tight, a new cam bolt package was procured. when the package was opened, it was thought the bolts were for a different application because the cams were slightly larger than the cams on the bolt that broke. upon placing the replacement cam into the bracket, it fit very snug, with no slop, like the one that broke. put those bolts in, and no more problems with alignment changing.
this only happened one time, so i don't know if it was the wrong cam bolts for the application [i didn't put the originals/replacements in] or a bad replacement part.
since that time, when replacing cam bolts, i make sure the cams fit the brackets snug before installing the control arms.
just my experience. your mileage will vary.
beer

Re: Steering / Alignment Issue [Re: RoadrunnerCN] #2973073
10/11/21 03:40 PM
10/11/21 03:40 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 7,536
Fort Worth, Texas
3hundred Offline
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Originally Posted by RoadrunnerCN
Squealing (leaning out at the top)


You're describing excessive positive camber (leaning out at the top), no noise would be associated with that. Squealing would be the tire being dragged along the pavement, toe in is always set last because caster and camber affect it. So excessive camber would change the toe setting, enough to make the tires squeal? I dunno, I've never run into that. I'd start by checking upper and lower ball joints and control arm bushings.


'68 Fury Convertible
'69 300 Convertible
'93 Ramcharger 5.7 Hemi
'93 Ramcharger 318 sold
'01 3500 4x4 Cummins 6 speed sold
'13 300 S sold
'15 Durango 5.7 Hemi
'16 300 S Hemi
Re: Steering / Alignment Issue [Re: RoadrunnerCN] #2973080
10/11/21 04:12 PM
10/11/21 04:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,415
Albany, NY
67SATisfaction Offline
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Albany, NY
Holy cow... you gave a ton of information to unpack, my initial advice for next time is: SLOW DOWN...

You have a single problem of sudden, uncontrolled onset of positive camber. Next time, focus just on that one problem and take it one step at a time. Your initial problem triggered you to get into every single suspension component from pitman arm, LCA, A-arm, strut, all bushings and a torsion bar.. all of which makes it more difficult to isolate and diagnose how you got your positive camber problem. (Are your new pitman and idler arms the right length?) A suggestion for next time; try and fix one element at a time and figure out which specific element is or was the problem.

OK... if the squeal went from bad to worse on your ride back from the show, and you can *see* that the camber problem has returned (You wrote "but they already did that...twice...and it isn't holding") then I'd start by inspecting whatever controls the camber - which IIRC is the upper A-arm and eccentric washers with the thru-bolts. Start looking for "skid marks" in the steel at those bolts, evidence of recent movement at the slotted bolt holes, and steel "ears" that hold the eccentric bolt washers. I expect you'll see evidence of movement. The positive camber condition will require you to return to the alignment shop and explain what happened, and have them correct it again. Did they not torque the upper A-arm bolts down? Are the bolts worn out or incorrect or the eccentric washers not seated properly?

Of secondary importance is to document the wear pattern on your tires, if any: More on inside edge?, outside edge?, are they inflated to property pressure, etc... that can help confirm the positive camber problem.

Cheers,
- Art

Last edited by 67SATisfaction; 10/11/21 04:14 PM.

1965 Satellite hardtop 361/2bbl, console 727, open 2.76
1967 Satellite convert 383/4bbl, column 727, open 3.23
1975 Maserati Bora, US spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8, 5-spd ZF man
1977 Maserati Khamsin, Euro spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8, 5-spd ZF man
1982 Alfa Romeo GTV6, 2.5L SOHC hemi V6, 5-spd man transaxle
2007 Aston Martin DB9, 6.0L DOHC V12, 6spd man transaxle
Re: Steering / Alignment Issue [Re: 3hundred] #2973082
10/11/21 04:20 PM
10/11/21 04:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,415
Albany, NY
67SATisfaction Offline
The member whose name is actually Art
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Albany, NY
Originally Posted by 3hundred
Originally Posted by RoadrunnerCN
Squealing (leaning out at the top)


You're describing excessive positive camber (leaning out at the top), no noise would be associated with that. Squealing would be the tire being dragged along the pavement, toe in is always set last because caster and camber affect it. So excessive camber would change the toe setting, enough to make the tires squeal? I dunno, I've never run into that. I'd start by checking upper and lower ball joints and control arm bushings.


Good advice..
Roadrunner CN is describing a second episode of sudden-onset positive camber, plus the tires are squealing.
Both conditions can exist: I suspect the tires will be much more prone the squeal the inside tire of a turn, because IIRC that tire will toe-out more as it lifts..

RoadRunnerCN - I'd like to know in what condition the tires squeal - driving straight, or in turns, or both?

Last edited by 67SATisfaction; 10/11/21 04:22 PM.

1965 Satellite hardtop 361/2bbl, console 727, open 2.76
1967 Satellite convert 383/4bbl, column 727, open 3.23
1975 Maserati Bora, US spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8, 5-spd ZF man
1977 Maserati Khamsin, Euro spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8, 5-spd ZF man
1982 Alfa Romeo GTV6, 2.5L SOHC hemi V6, 5-spd man transaxle
2007 Aston Martin DB9, 6.0L DOHC V12, 6spd man transaxle
Re: Steering / Alignment Issue [Re: 67SATisfaction] #2973109
10/11/21 06:53 PM
10/11/21 06:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,635
Harriman NY
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71GTX471 Offline
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Harriman NY
Are your front brakes dragging after awhile & heating up,creating rolling resistance & tire sequel,I know its a long shot but possible.

Re: Steering / Alignment Issue [Re: 71GTX471] #2973290
10/12/21 07:40 AM
10/12/21 07:40 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,251
Apollo, PA.
B1MAXX Offline
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camber changes with ride height. maybe there is an issue with a torsion bar mount, torsion bar, lower control arm pivot.

Re: Steering / Alignment Issue [Re: B1MAXX] #2973310
10/12/21 09:03 AM
10/12/21 09:03 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
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Ohio
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jlatessa Offline
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I'm with B1MAXX, Same problem we had with our 70 Charger.
Tire wear on one side, suspension sag.

We had forgotten to fully tighten the nut in front of the lower control arm.
Also there's the mentioned possibility of the K frame sleeve for the lower control arm
detaching from the K-frame.

I'd look there first.

Joe

Re: Steering / Alignment Issue [Re: jlatessa] #2973319
10/12/21 09:28 AM
10/12/21 09:28 AM
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Pikes Peak Country
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TC@HP2 Offline
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There is some very good advice in here.

I'd jump in with the fact that this has been set, twice, and then undone its self to point to something continuing to gradually fail. Wrong sized eccentrics could be this, inadequate torque on the eccentrics, tearing of upper arm or eccentric mounts, tearing of torsion bar mounts in the k Frame, possibly failing ball joints. The fact that you replaced so many things, kind of eliminates individual component issues but the problem returns and continues to worsen which sound like at the moment its set, its okay, but once you load/stress the system, something tears/fails a bit further to recreate the problem.

First place I'd look is the lower control arm/t-bar mount in the k frame. If this is tearing and slowly rotating in, its going to pull the camber in with it.

Re: Steering / Alignment Issue [Re: TC@HP2] #2973621
10/12/21 05:34 PM
10/12/21 05:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
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Harriman NY
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71GTX471 Offline
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Try stress relieving the LCA bushings @ static ride height,loosen each LCA nut while vehi.is on a drive on lift or the ground,jounce the front of vehi.a couple of times & re torque LCA nuts, some times bushings are tightened when the arms are hanging creating pretension on the bushings,this can really make a vehi.ride like crap.

Re: Steering / Alignment Issue [Re: 71GTX471] #2973631
10/12/21 05:52 PM
10/12/21 05:52 PM
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Ohio
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jlatessa Offline
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Not to mention the bushings failing prematurely.

Joe

Re: Steering / Alignment Issue [Re: jlatessa] #2973881
10/13/21 11:25 AM
10/13/21 11:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 136
Kentucky, USA
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RoadrunnerCN Offline OP
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Kentucky, USA
Thanks all for the replies. I've been talking to a friend (both of us are so busy, but within the next week...), we'll get together and do what you mentioned. I'll try to answer some of your questions below and summarize what sounds like you recommended:
1.) Check eccentric bolts for movement and retorque...what is the pounds per square inch on these...anybody know what they should be torqued to? They were replaced/are new with new bushings.
2.) Check mounting tube lower control arm stud where it is connected to K-frame.
3.) Check cam brackets and bolts. (might need new cam bolt package...we'll see)
4.) Check nuts on control arms.
5.) I didn't replace the strut rod bushings.
6.) Frame rails and inner fenders = no rust/solid.
7.) Prior to replacing all the parts the tires were squealing all the time, straight and in turns. Now, some straight, but mostly in turns to the right, some to the left.
8.) Brakes aren't dragging.
Did I cover everything? If I missed something, let me know. Lot's of good advice, just trying to summarize. Thanks again for your help! We'll get to it and hopefully, will have success. Please feel free to continue to comment as I'll keep checking back. Thanks again!

Re: Steering / Alignment Issue [Re: RoadrunnerCN] #2973902
10/13/21 12:21 PM
10/13/21 12:21 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 11,317
Looking for a way out of Middl...
IMGTX Offline
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Originally Posted by RoadrunnerCN
Thanks all for the replies. I've been talking to a friend (both of us are so busy, but within the next week...), we'll get together and do what you mentioned. I'll try to answer some of your questions below and summarize what sounds like you recommended:
1.) Check eccentric bolts for movement and retorque...what is the pounds per square inch on these...anybody know what they should be torqued to? They were replaced/are new with new bushings.
3.) Check cam brackets and bolts. (might need new cam bolt package...we'll see)
4.) Check nuts on control arms.


The are basically the same repair. The eccentric bolts are the cam bolts and they go into brackets. The bolts themselves go trough the upper control arm and are used for adjustment. There is one LCA nut on each side to check also.

PART A in the diagram below


Originally Posted by RoadrunnerCN

5.) I didn't replace the strut rod bushings.



If the bushing has failed, or the nut not tightened correctly, it would allow the lower control arm to swing forward and backward causing the squealing. Often there will be a clunk when accelerating or decelerating.

ALSO

I forgot to mention to look to see if the strut rods are bent. Replaced many a bent rod because people try to jack the car up in the wrong spot.

7965911-sus.JPG
Re: Steering / Alignment Issue [Re: RoadrunnerCN] #2974124
10/13/21 08:59 PM
10/13/21 08:59 PM
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Omaha Ne
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TJP Offline
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Omaha Ne
Stock or aftermarket steering box ?

Re: Steering / Alignment Issue [Re: jlatessa] #2974689
10/15/21 04:14 PM
10/15/21 04:14 PM
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Posts: 136
Kentucky, USA
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RoadrunnerCN Offline OP
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Stock, original, power steering.

Re: Steering / Alignment Issue [Re: RoadrunnerCN] #2974767
10/15/21 09:04 PM
10/15/21 09:04 PM
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Omaha Ne
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TJP Offline
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Make sure the control valve on top of the box is centered. If it isn't it will cause the car to pull one direction or the other. The procedure is fairly simple and covered in the FSM. DO NOT put your arm through the wheel to start the car if doing this yourself
beer

Re: Steering / Alignment Issue [Re: TJP] #2974859
10/16/21 07:55 AM
10/16/21 07:55 AM
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ohio
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ruderunner Offline
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True enough but not relevant to his situation. He's not having an issue with pulling, rather not retaining the alignment.

Something is moving when it shouldn't be.

Question, correct bolts for K frame? Are they tight?


Angry white guy
Re: Steering / Alignment Issue [Re: ruderunner] #2974878
10/16/21 08:57 AM
10/16/21 08:57 AM
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Omaha Ne
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TJP Offline
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Originally Posted by ruderunner
True enough but not relevant to his situation. He's not having an issue with pulling, rather not retaining the alignment.

Something is moving when it shouldn't be.

Question, correct bolts for K frame? Are they tight?

Valid point up, but I though I'd throw it out there. beer







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