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Re: How do I determine electric fan CFM needs? [Re: jbeintherockies] #2943815
07/16/21 07:25 AM
07/16/21 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by jbeintherockies
Originally Posted by Sniper
Flex fans do a real good job of not moving air. If you do have a stock fan to swap in, try that.


My brother has a factory fan not currently being used; not sure what diameter or blade count. I can try it with the clutch and see how it goes.


Putting a stock fan in place without the viscous clutch would be a worthy experiment, especially if it is the 18 inch diameter/ 7 blade unit.

How would rate your own or nearby available metal working skills?

Could you cut down the outer edges of the blades of a 9 blade Ram/Dakota fan and find the equipment or shop to re-balance it?
Or re-drill the bolt holes of a Ford/GM/Toyota fan?

The purpose of the K thermocouple probe on an IR-unit is to be able to IR read the temperature of a spot,
then switch to a probe to touch that same spot and find out how off the IR reading was.
IR units with “emissivity” adjustment are also preferred for this reason.
Low end IR units have the emissivity set at 0.95 without adjustment.
Use your present Craftsman IR unit to scan your warmed up radiator and look for “cooler regions“ that might indicate internal coolant flow blockages.

Re: How do I determine electric fan CFM needs? [Re: 360view] #2944878
07/19/21 03:44 PM
07/19/21 03:44 PM
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Richmond, Indiana
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I was at a drag and drive event in June (Rocky Mountain Race Week) where a lot of guys were running the electric fan setups from an '06 Charger with Hemi engine. They said they were getting them from bone yards. They were putting them in twin turbo LS powered cars. I think if you can find something from an OEM vehicle, they are proven to work fairly well.


1970 340 swinger. sublime
1967 barracuda fastback BB
55 Plymouth Project
Re: How do I determine electric fan CFM needs? [Re: jbeintherockies] #2944984
07/19/21 10:28 PM
07/19/21 10:28 PM
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Rittman Ohio
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You haven't said what water pump drive you are running. Make sure you are spinning the water pump fast enough at least 1 to 1 with the crank. I have a little more engine in my Savoy and I'm running a 26" 3 row rad with an 18" thermo clutch fan. My pulleys are 440 source repo units with a Flow-Kooler high volume pump and my car stays around 180 on a 90 degree day on the highway at 3600 RPM. It does creep up around 190 when sitting at a light but that is not really hot. I haven't put a shroud on it yet but that would probably cure the low speed cooling around town. On the alternator you don't need a 100 amp unit but you could use a basic Toyota internal regulator alternator unit. The bracket kit and plug you can get from AR Engineering and I suggest a Factory Denso unit over a discount rebuilt unit from the zone or one of the other stores. They charge 14.5 volts at 900 RPM and do away with the failure prone firewall mounted regulator. twocents

Gus beer

Last edited by fourgearsavoy; 07/19/21 10:29 PM.

64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
Re: How do I determine electric fan CFM needs? [Re: fourgearsavoy] #2947284
07/26/21 11:46 AM
07/26/21 11:46 AM
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Aurora, CO
jbeintherockies Offline OP
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Originally Posted by fourgearsavoy
You haven't said what water pump drive you are running. Make sure you are spinning the water pump fast enough at least 1 to 1 with the crank. I have a little more engine in my Savoy and I'm running a 26" 3 row rad with an 18" thermo clutch fan. My pulleys are 440 source repo units with a Flow-Kooler high volume pump and my car stays around 180 on a 90 degree day on the highway at 3600 RPM. It does creep up around 190 when sitting at a light but that is not really hot. I haven't put a shroud on it yet but that would probably cure the low speed cooling around town. On the alternator you don't need a 100 amp unit but you could use a basic Toyota internal regulator alternator unit. The bracket kit and plug you can get from AR Engineering and I suggest a Factory Denso unit over a discount rebuilt unit from the zone or one of the other stores. They charge 14.5 volts at 900 RPM and do away with the failure prone firewall mounted regulator. twocents

Gus beer


Interesting you should ask : )

I worked on the car over the weekend. Once I had the radiator and fan out, I noticed the crank pulley was very small. I then measured its diameter and compared it to the crank pulley on my brother's 67 GTX. Sure enough, my dad's crank pulley is a 5" underdrive unit. The crank pulley on the GTX is about 6-1/2" in diameter. I read that the 5" crank pulley underdrives the accessories (only WP/fan and alternator on this car) by 30%! That explains why the volts drop when he comes to a light and most likely why he is having so many serious cooling issues.

So, I will be buying a repo crank pulley from 440 source. I am also going to buy an overflow/recovery tank and a fan.

Speaking of fans, my brother doesn't have a fan to use. So, I was considering either of these:
Derale 19" 6 blade clutch fan
Mancini Resto 18-1/2" 7 blade clutch fan

The price of the resto 7 blade is insane. But it might be worth it if it cools (and is balanced) better than the cheap Derale. I will be using a new viscous fan clutch because that is what my dad has available to use.

Thoughts?

I took the radiator to A1 Radiator in the Denver area to have him pressure test it along with two different caps; it was steaming the last time the car overheated. I think the steam was coming from the top of the core; but I couldn't get a good look of where it may have been coming from because of the shroud. I also was in a hurry when I took the radiator out to get to the shop before he closed on Saturday. So, I didn't have a chance to remove the shroud and do a thorough investigation.

I have a good voltage tester with a thermocouple and a laser temp gun. I haven't bought the anemometer yet; they are expensive. Yes the manometer that was suggested ($36 HT-1890 “no name” Chinese unit and it has worked pretty well) is cheap; but I'm not sure I really need it.

I've been looking into upgrading the alternator. I am waiting to see if I can get this car cooled with the factory setup before I choose an alternator. The Denso's are cool, but are more money and require a different bracket setup (AR Engineering) and a plug/pigtail (i.e., even more money). The Powermasters (which I have on my car), bolt right in. My Powermaster alternator has been great! I would only buy a new alternator; I wouldn't buy a rebuild from any of the parts stores.

Last edited by jbeintherockies; 09/11/21 06:55 PM.
Re: How do I determine electric fan CFM needs? [Re: jbeintherockies] #2947686
07/27/21 09:09 AM
07/27/21 09:09 AM
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Rittman Ohio
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I would find a used fan local or on the web and use it with a new thermal viscous drive. I was just at the Monster Mopar swap meet over the weekend and there must have been a dozen fans at the small swap meet they have so they are out there used.

Gus beer


64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
Re: How do I determine electric fan CFM needs? [Re: jbeintherockies] #2947697
07/27/21 09:38 AM
07/27/21 09:38 AM
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What is the size of the opening in the shroud?
Probably also ought to carefully measure if the center of the present fan is in the exact center of the shroud opening.

A ten percent larger diameter fan does not move 10% more CFM.
It typically moves
1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1 = 1.33
at least.

The power taken from the engine typically increases even more
1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1 = 1.46
or 46% more

Above assumes fan design and number of blades at pitch angle
stays roughly constant

Power laws of fans routinely surprises

The bending of blades in a flex fan make them unpredictable especially as age makes the material either stiffer or looser.

In past posts here on Moparts is a graph of rpm versus kilowatts comparing the solid fan versus viscous clutch fan of the original 340 V8

The plastic multibladed radiator fan of later model year Cummins Diesel Ram trucks looks like a computer aided design that might be significantly better than older designs.

Re: How do I determine electric fan CFM needs? [Re: 360view] #2947706
07/27/21 09:49 AM
07/27/21 09:49 AM
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not sure of diameter

07C8219A-BF43-417E-9E34-1926BA22C319.jpeg
Re: How do I determine electric fan CFM needs? [Re: 360view] #2947710
07/27/21 09:53 AM
07/27/21 09:53 AM
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another non oem

70541814-8471-4C58-B815-8B9E680379C4.jpeg
Re: How do I determine electric fan CFM needs? [Re: fourgearsavoy] #2947851
07/27/21 04:48 PM
07/27/21 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by fourgearsavoy
I would find a used fan local or on the web and use it with a new thermal viscous drive. I was just at the Monster Mopar swap meet over the weekend and there must have been a dozen fans at the small swap meet they have so they are out there used.

Gus beer


iagree with Gus. When I had the aluminum headed 340 in my Dart it had overheating issues. Brand new 22" copper radiator, 160° high flow thermostat, new WP and a Flex-A-Lite Black magic electric fan. Thought the radiator was the issue so I installed a generic 22" aluminum radiator, Flow Kooler WP, my electric fan was too deep so I bought another, still ran hot. I thought there was a issue with the engine and was going to take it apart to inspect it, someone here recommended that I try a belt driven fan with a shroud. Luckily a buddy of mine had a like new MP viscous fan kit that he sold me cheap. I cut down a shroud off a 26" radiator to work on the aluminum radiator, used the high flow thermostat and Flow Kooler WP. My overheating issues went away. It's never been anywhere near hot since then. The car currently has a pump gas 434" small block in it that has gone 6.25 in the 1/8 and never gets hot on the street or at the strip.

Re: How do I determine electric fan CFM needs? [Re: jbeintherockies] #2962211
09/08/21 03:51 PM
09/08/21 03:51 PM
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Aurora, CO
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Update: So I bought a 5-blade, Mopar performance fan from my friend Jim. I also bought new crank and water pump pulleys from 440Source and Hayden's low profile heavy duty thermal fan clutch (I regret buying the clutch; I should have simply tested this using no clutch like what was suggested). The reason I bought a new water pump pulley is because the aluminum one that was on the car was so thick there was barely any space to mount the fan clutch and fan. I first tried used pulleys that I got from my friend. But the water pump pulleys that I got in the deal didn't fit (either hit the water pump or did not align properly). Also, the crank pulley that I got in the deal didn't fit because the balancer on the engine is modern, requiring the pulley with the offset. So, out of frustration, I simply bought new pulleys. Prior to installing everything, I spent a lot of time sealing the factory fan shroud to the radiator, using strips of neoprene that I attached using rivets and silicone to seal the bottom of the shroud, where a large gap (1.5") existed. The car was out last weekend at the Golden Super Cruise and it still ran hot; got to 230 while sitting in traffic. So, after all of this, I fixed nothing.

At this point I guess I can try the 7 blade factory fan. The Cummins diesel fans are huge and would require modification to fit into the shroud opening. My friend did have a large fan from a 70's Ramcharger; but way too big for this application. Regarding the suggestions of trimming down these large fans, I think the ends of the fan blades are shaped in a specific way (looks like it to me). If I start trimming them down, I will most likely disrupt the flow of air off of the fan blade tips.

Finally, I am not convinced that dual electric fans are going to fix the issue. My friend Jim runs a 500 on the street with 13.5 compression and a .700+ mechanical roller and the Mopar performance fan with viscous clutch keeps that "cool" (around 200). This engine is making a lot less power than that one makes. The specs of the car and engine applicable to this thread can be found in the first post of this thread.

Last edited by jbeintherockies; 09/08/21 04:38 PM.
Re: How do I determine electric fan CFM needs? [Re: jbeintherockies] #2962453
09/09/21 12:02 PM
09/09/21 12:02 PM
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what radiator does your buddy with the 500 use ?
beer

Re: How do I determine electric fan CFM needs? [Re: moparx] #2965263
09/18/21 03:22 PM
09/18/21 03:22 PM
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Aurora, CO
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Factory 3-core. The engine now runs on E85, which makes it run cooler. he said it ran hotter on race gas.

Re: How do I determine electric fan CFM needs? [Re: jbeintherockies] #2965268
09/18/21 03:37 PM
09/18/21 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by jbeintherockies
Factory 3-core.


And you are running an aftermarket aluminum 4 core.

Seems we found the issue there. Maybe your buddy can help you play swap with his stuff to see what's the issue.

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