Re: Vacuum pump for street car
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2927192
05/27/21 10:05 AM
05/27/21 10:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,842 Omaha Ne
TJP
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I know it gets mistaken for other leaks alot, but It's definitely not leaking anywhere else. I pulled the transmission out to check and I also have an inspection camera that I used. Everything is dry above it. I even dropped the engine back off at the engine builders shop, he said he went through it, changed the seal again and put in new rings because apparently they weren't seated and as soon as I put the engine back in the car and started it up, it instantly eaked again. Again I 100% agree with Cab, A couple of suggestions: 1. Put a fuel pump pressure tester / vacuum gauge on the dipstick Tube with your breathers in place, start the motor and see if it is in fact building any crankcase pressure. The gauges are cheap and available at almost any parts house, harbor freight etc. 2. I might at this point either find a shop with a Dyno that can run the motor while observing the back side, 3. Put dye in the oil. Start the motor and run it for a bit to make sure it's mixed. 4. Brake clean the cr-p out of the back side Leave it sit and do it again. 5. Start the motor and shut is off as soon as oil appears. 6. Pull the trans etc and see what the dye reveals. You could have a porosity in the casting or something else going on 7. Maybe buy or build and engine run stand. One can be fabbed up fairly cheap, especially if you don't have to run it for more than a minute or two. And should you have to, using a garden hose, fill the block with water. Put a restrictor in the outlet hose that will allow enough flow to keep the engine cool. You should now be able to see exactly where the leak is. NOTE: The motors don't require a lot (stand wise) as long as you don't start flogging it. I've seen more than one instance where they were started sitting on the oil pan. NO KIDDING!!! For some reason I question the following: he said he went through it, changed the seal again and put in new rings because apparently they weren't seated My BS detector is smelling a bit warm, not quite melting yet but warm Good luck and keep us posted
Last edited by TJP; 05/27/21 10:19 AM.
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Re: Vacuum pump for street car
[Re: TJP]
#2927265
05/27/21 02:02 PM
05/27/21 02:02 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,187 clarks summit pa
73cuda340
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OP
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Believe me, I've lost all trust in the company as well. The seal was definitely changed because it was a different one than what I last put in before it was taken back to the shop. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't change anything else that they said they did though.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Vacuum pump for street car
[Re: TJP]
#2928596
05/30/21 06:42 PM
05/30/21 06:42 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,187 clarks summit pa
73cuda340
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Nice video. I'm waiting on testing for any pressure. I have to buy a new dipstick assembly since the engine builder lost that as well.
Last edited by 73cuda340; 05/30/21 06:44 PM.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Vacuum pump for street car
[Re: 73cuda340]
#2928612
05/30/21 07:14 PM
05/30/21 07:14 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,611 Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
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Rittman Ohio
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Have you tried clocking the parting line on the seal in other positions yet? There were guys on here that clock the line at 6-12 and claimed it never leaked again. Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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Re: Vacuum pump for street car
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#2928623
05/30/21 07:33 PM
05/30/21 07:33 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,187 clarks summit pa
73cuda340
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Yes, I clocked it at 6 and 12, still leaked. The last seal that I put in was one of the fast fish one piece seals and retainer setups. I've only ran the car for about 10 minutes and it hasn't leaked. Just hoping to find out the cause so that this one doesn't start leaking.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Vacuum pump for street car
[Re: Dcuda69]
#2928735
05/30/21 11:42 PM
05/30/21 11:42 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,187 clarks summit pa
73cuda340
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Flywheel bolts were always started and torqued by hand. I never used any impact gun used on the engine.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Vacuum pump for street car
[Re: 73cuda340]
#2928834
05/31/21 11:08 AM
05/31/21 11:08 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,842 Omaha Ne
TJP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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The last seal that I put in was one of the fast fish one piece seals and retainer setups. I've only ran the car for about 10 minutes and it hasn't leaked. Just hoping to find out the cause so that this one doesn't start leaking. When did you install the new seal and retainer ??? You changed two items at the same time so at this time there is no way to know which may have been at fault.
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Re: Vacuum pump for street car
[Re: 73cuda340]
#2928841
05/31/21 11:27 AM
05/31/21 11:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,807 Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda
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master
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Moved to N.E. Tennessee
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I'm waiting on testing for any pressure. I have to buy a new dipstick assembly since the engine builder lost that as well. Did he loose the tube or did he break it off in the block?
Last edited by GomangoCuda; 05/31/21 11:29 AM.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Re: Vacuum pump for street car
[Re: 73cuda340]
#2928858
05/31/21 11:57 AM
05/31/21 11:57 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,744 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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Their are only four places oil can leak at the rear of the motor, above the main seal, oil galley plugs and cam plug, oil pan gaskets, the main seal itself or the main side seals I use adhesive silicone to seal the side seals after the main seal holder is installed, I also use a very thin strip of that adhesive on top of both main seals so they seal against the seal holder and sometimes a tiny dab on the seal ends where they touch. I use a putty knife or a wide tip thin screw driver to smear the silicone into the gaps on the seal holder to the block, it is not easy but I do it so you can to i build lots of Mopar B, RB and 426 hemi that don't leak oil from the rear I hope this helps
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Vacuum pump for street car
[Re: TJP]
#2928953
05/31/21 04:46 PM
05/31/21 04:46 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,187 clarks summit pa
73cuda340
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The last seal that I put in was one of the fast fish one piece seals and retainer setups. I've only ran the car for about 10 minutes and it hasn't leaked. Just hoping to find out the cause so that this one doesn't start leaking. When did you install the new seal and retainer ??? You changed two items at the same time so at this time there is no way to know which may have been at fault. The most recent time I changed it, I swapped in a new retainer with the one piece seal, since I bought it as a kit. Every other time I changed just the seal, or the engine builder did, it leaked.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Vacuum pump for street car
[Re: GomangoCuda]
#2928954
05/31/21 04:47 PM
05/31/21 04:47 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,187 clarks summit pa
73cuda340
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I'm waiting on testing for any pressure. I have to buy a new dipstick assembly since the engine builder lost that as well. Did he loose the tube or did he break it off in the block? Lost the tube and dipstick assembly.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Vacuum pump for street car
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2928956
05/31/21 04:55 PM
05/31/21 04:55 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,187 clarks summit pa
73cuda340
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Their are only four places oil can leak at the rear of the motor, above the main seal, oil galley plugs and cam plug, oil pan gaskets, the main seal itself or the main side seals I use adhesive silicone to seal the side seals after the main seal holder is installed, I also use a very thin strip of that adhesive on top of both main seals so they seal against the seal holder and sometimes a tiny dab on the seal ends where they touch. I use a putty knife or a wide tip thin screw driver to smear the silicone into the gaps on the seal holder to the block, it is not easy but I do it so you can to i build lots of Mopar B, RB and 426 hemi that don't leak oil from the rear I hope this helps The leak is definitely at the seal area. I checked all plugs and everything above the seal area and it's bone dry up there. I've tried every combination of rubber seals, viton seals, different brands, one piece, two piece, I've used the side seals on the retainer, left them out and used rtv using the same method that you used, clocked the seal at different locations and no matter what, it leaks everytime. That's why I was asking about a vacuum pump or even going to try a pcv setup because I have tried everything possible that I can think of with no luck. Even after pulling the engine back out and sending it back to the engine builder, waited over a year to get it back, put the whole car back together, just to have it leak probably half a quart of oil in about 30 seconds of running. I'm just want to drive my car at this point. It's been sitting in the garage for two years like this.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Vacuum pump for street car
[Re: 73cuda340]
#2929009
05/31/21 09:17 PM
05/31/21 09:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,842 Omaha Ne
TJP
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I Live Here
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Omaha Ne
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The last seal that I put in was one of the fast fish one piece seals and retainer setups. I've only ran the car for about 10 minutes and it hasn't leaked. Just hoping to find out the cause so that this one doesn't start leaking. The most recent time I changed it, I swapped in a new retainer with the one piece seal, since I bought it as a kit. Every other time I changed just the seal, or the engine builder did, it leaked.
I am getting a bit confused, But if I am understanding you correctly, You now have no leak after running the motor with the FF seal for 10 minutes with no dipstick tube Correct ??? IF so, get the dipstick tube installed. Attach a fuel pump tester / vacuum gauge to the dipstick tube. Start the motor and see if it starts building pressure. It should not with 2 open to air/ atmosphere breathers on it. Slowly increase the RPM while watching the gauge. It should not be building any pressure. Next take it for a drive again while watching the gauge. If at any time it starts building pressure with two open breathers you have a ring seal issue. PERIOD!!! Nothing is going to fix the issue if there is one except correcting the problem. The GAUGE will answer the question PERIOD!!
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Re: Vacuum pump for street car
[Re: TJP]
#2929019
05/31/21 10:12 PM
05/31/21 10:12 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,187 clarks summit pa
73cuda340
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OP
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Yes, you are correct. The current setup is the ff one piece seals and retainer. Although I have only ran it for about 10 minutes, it does not leak. The dipstick tube was lost by the engine builder and they just plugged the hole where the dipstick would go (no, it is not leaking here either, I checked that as well). I'm going to do the vacuum/fuel pressure gauge test that you recommended. I'm just waiting on the dipstick that I ordered to come in. I'm really hoping that it isn't a ring seal issue since I just paid a ton of money to try and see if the engine builder could fix it and he changed the seal and said he put new rings in it. At first after I put 4 seals in myself and they all leaked, I thought maybe it was just me doing something incorrectly, but after he put two in and they both leaked, I've always had it in the back of my mind that there is alot more going on, and the shop is just trying to stick me with something they messed up. The last phone call I had with them after I told him it leaked again, he's trying to blame the leak on the transmission being out of alignment, and it's pulling down on the crank. Factory bellhousing, hemi a833 and transmission crossmember, nothing custom, so that's complete b.s. . I've accepted my losses at this point and I'm not even bothering to call them anymore. The company is a joke. I will keep everyone posted with the updates when I get time to do the test. Thanks again, I truly do appreciate everyone's help.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Vacuum pump for street car
[Re: 73cuda340]
#2929052
06/01/21 02:40 AM
06/01/21 02:40 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,335 Park Forest, IL
slantzilla
Too Many Posts
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Park Forest, IL
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This didn't happen to be one of the old MP crate 528 motors did it? I seem to recall those had lots of issues.
"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
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Re: Vacuum pump for street car
[Re: 73cuda340]
#2929128
06/01/21 11:05 AM
06/01/21 11:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,842 Omaha Ne
TJP
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I Live Here
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I told him it leaked again, he's trying to blame the leak on the transmission being out of alignment, and it's pulling down on the crank. Factory bellhousing, hemi a833 and transmission crossmember, nothing custom, so that's complete b.s. What he is saying is possible but IMO unlikely. It would require a lot of misalignment to do so, not to mention putting pressure on the rear main bearing, the trans would be difficult to put in, and it would likely have shifting problems. However, I do believe the service manual recommends dialing the bellhousing if changing from a assembly line installed unit. They do sell offset dowel pins to correct misalignment issues. It can be done in the car preferably on a lift but either way it's a PITA. Or you can do the pressure test and go from there
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