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Re: Dyno Dissappointment [Re: 70VERT] #2958199
08/28/21 06:40 AM
08/28/21 06:40 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,311
Prospect, PA
BSB67 Offline
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Prospect, PA
There is still so much missing information about this engine build.

You never stated the measured compression ratio. Tell us about the 0.015 over pistons, who made it and what's the final compression distance. What is the cranking cylinder pressure? Because you you milled the heads a bunch, had them "rebuilt", and put a Whiplash cam in it suggests to me that this was a budget build and you put bandaides on it to make up for the low compression.

Does it have headers? If you are using exhaust manifolds, that is not a good cam choice.

Mustang or Dyno Jet dyno?

If that is 304 RWHP on a Mustang dyno for what I'm guessing this build is, that's not bad. And, IMO, 304 RWHP is a nice performing street car. 304 RWHP you should be able to drive it to the track and pull directly into the staging lane and run a 13.00 at 105 mph with a street tire/stock converter 60 ft of 2.0 sec.

Re: Dyno Dissappointment [Re: 70VERT] #2958222
08/28/21 09:31 AM
08/28/21 09:31 AM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 875
Missouri
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jwb123 Offline
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Missouri
HP numbers from any dyno, chassis or engine is just the first step. I prefer an engine dyno, because you can get more data to decide if it needs tuning, and or what is right or not right with the combo. While nothing stops you from having exhaust gas temps, 02's, fuel flow, BSFC, etc. nobody usually takes the time to set up an engine on a chassis dyno. To tune your combination I would want to know cranking compression, to get a handle on dynamic compression ratio, and exhaust temps, along with 02 readings to see how efficient combustion is. One HP per cubic inch is what I use as a reasonable goal on a mild engine with bolt on's as you describe.

Re: Dyno Dissappointment [Re: jwb123] #2958227
08/28/21 09:40 AM
08/28/21 09:40 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,684
W. Kentucky
justinp61 Offline
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What is the actual compression ratio? Very low I’m betting. A buddy of mine has a couple motorhome 440 blocks and both have huge bevels on the bore/deck.

Re: Dyno Dissappointment [Re: justinp61] #2958500
08/28/21 10:38 PM
08/28/21 10:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 695
Southern Alberta
Uberpube Offline
mopar
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Posts: 695
Southern Alberta
I dyno'd my 78 Ramcharger, it ran perfectly fine, edelbrock 750 cfm carb, performer intake, dual exhaust, it made a blistering 121 rwhp. At 300 rwhp, that's quite the improvement you've made actually. For reference, my SRT10 ram with no mods made 355-ish rwhp.

Re: Dyno Dissappointment [Re: Uberpube] #2958627
08/29/21 11:10 AM
08/29/21 11:10 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492
So. Burlington, Vt.
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fast68plymouth Offline
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So. Burlington, Vt.
Some friends in town have a chassis dyno in their shop.
It’s a dyno jet. They’re on there 2nd one.
The first one was the intertia style that had the heavy large diameter rollers.

Probably around 15 years ago they had a 69 Charger on it.
Flat top 440, SD intake, Demon 850, ootb RPM heads, 1-7/8” headers, MP 509 cam, 10” converter, 3.91’s.
Ran fine, felt pretty hot driving it around.
Made around 285hp to the wheels. The guy was all upset.

Took it to the track and it went 11’s.

I’ve seen a lot of that kind of thing that really make me scratch my head.


The new Dyno Jet they have has smaller rollers and uses an eddy current type of absorber instead of inertia....... so you can actually load the motor prior to making a “pull”, along with being able to set the accel rate.

I haven’t seen that one in action yet.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Dyno Dissappointment [Re: fast68plymouth] #2958662
08/29/21 12:25 PM
08/29/21 12:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,669
Wichita
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GY3 Online content
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Wichita
Friends have tried to get me to put my car on a chassis dyno at one of the events we attend.

I have no interest. To me they are a tuning tool and nothing more.

The only numbers that matter to me are the ones at the dragstrip. Even then, mph is what is relevant to hp. You can have crap for tires and chassis and a lousy e.t. but still get a close idea from weight and mph of what the engine is making.


'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.

Re: Dyno Dissappointment [Re: GY3] #2958710
08/29/21 02:52 PM
08/29/21 02:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
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lewtot184 Offline
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usa
low rear axle gears and loose converters can have an adverse effect on a chassis dyno outcome.

Re: Dyno Dissappointment [Re: lewtot184] #2958713
08/29/21 03:11 PM
08/29/21 03:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,607
Lapeer, MI.
todd440 Offline
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Lapeer, MI.
I'm curious on these .015 over pistons also. SO....custom pistons yet you still need steel shim gaskets to and to shave the heads to get the compression up?

Re: Dyno Dissappointment [Re: lewtot184] #2958714
08/29/21 03:13 PM
08/29/21 03:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492
So. Burlington, Vt.
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fast68plymouth Offline
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So. Burlington, Vt.
After watching a few videos with cars on hub dynos, making simulated 1/4 runs as they go thru the gears........ I can see where that could be pretty helpful.

https://m.facebook.com/590227367683050/videos/522722568322028/

Oh..... and yeh...... that thing sounds bad a$$!!!


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Dyno Dissappointment [Re: lewtot184] #2958754
08/29/21 05:57 PM
08/29/21 05:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,169
Park Forest, IL
slantzilla Offline
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Park Forest, IL
Originally Posted by lewtot184
low rear axle gears and loose converters can have an adverse effect on a chassis dyno outcome.


I saw a S/C Corvette on the dyno when I worked at a race shop. 406 small block with a glide. 6500 stall and 5.38 gears. Dyno'd 440 at the wheels. Went 8:50@163 at the track. Dyno's are tuning tools, nothing more.


"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
Re: Dyno Dissappointment [Re: fast68plymouth] #2958759
08/29/21 06:15 PM
08/29/21 06:15 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
After watching a few videos with cars on hub dynos, making simulated 1/4 runs as they go thru the gears........ I can see where that could be pretty helpful.

https://m.facebook.com/590227367683050/videos/522722568322028/

Oh..... and yeh...... that thing sounds bad a$$!!!
That sounds a lot nicer confused what do the dyno sheets say ? work
Any measurements made on that dyno are not the same as at the track with the hood on forcing air into the carbs would be work
I wouldn't trust those results to be same as they would be at the track twocents
Two things I look at and trust the most for tuning is the spark plug and the time slip up


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Dyno Dissappointment [Re: fast68plymouth] #2958807
08/29/21 07:50 PM
08/29/21 07:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 695
Southern Alberta
Uberpube Offline
mopar
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mopar

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 695
Southern Alberta
Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
Some friends in town have a chassis dyno in their shop.
It’s a dyno jet. They’re on there 2nd one.
The first one was the intertia style that had the heavy large diameter rollers.

Probably around 15 years ago they had a 69 Charger on it.
Flat top 440, SD intake, Demon 850, ootb RPM heads, 1-7/8” headers, MP 509 cam, 10” converter, 3.91’s.
Ran fine, felt pretty hot driving it around.
Made around 285hp to the wheels. The guy was all upset.

Took it to the track and it went 11’s.

I’ve seen a lot of that kind of thing that really make me scratch my head.


The new Dyno Jet they have has smaller rollers and uses an eddy current type of absorber instead of inertia....... so you can actually load the motor prior to making a “pull”, along with being able to set the accel rate.

I haven’t seen that one in action yet.

The 224 smaller drum is still inertia, the 224xlc is inertia and eddy current. I have the xlc now , I use to have a 248 , the large drum version. The stack has to be matched to the machines drum weight, if you use someone elses stack(dyno computer module), you'll get whacked readings. The 248 actually had loading via the modulation of the air brakes(locomotive brake shoes), if the brakes were acting up or setup wrong, it caused low readings, mine would flutter the air solenoid, it stopped when I fixed the cable shielding.Dynojets are calibrated on the inertia weight so that no matter where you dyno a car, if the same correction is used the number spit out should be pretty close to the same anywhere on a given car strappped down in a consistent manner on any dynojet. I keep notes on cars I dyno that I know are coming back.
Strapping the car down incorrectly will put a dent in the power. The less angle on the straps the better, but some people put angle in to load the tries up if the knurling is worn on the drums. I opted to build my own deck for the dyno, a longer version so that trucks and longer cars would still have less steep angle from the rear strap points.

Re: Dyno Dissappointment [Re: Uberpube] #2958935
08/30/21 08:29 AM
08/30/21 08:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,357
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda Offline
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Marion, South Carolina [><]
FWIW...my cuda only made around 630 RWHP on the local dynojet. I was surprised (figured it'd be higher, of course), but didn't really care since the car had already run 9.50s at 140+ mph at 3800 lbs.

Use the dyno as a tuning tool and nothing more.


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: Dyno Dissappointment [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2958952
08/30/21 09:41 AM
08/30/21 09:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492
So. Burlington, Vt.
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fast68plymouth Offline
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So. Burlington, Vt.
Quote
The stack has to be matched to the machines drum weight, if you use someone elses stack(dyno computer module), you'll get whacked readings.


My friends bought both of their dynos new from Dyno Jet...... complete with whatever electronics were needed to go along with them.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Dyno Dissappointment [Re: fast68plymouth] #2958966
08/30/21 10:47 AM
08/30/21 10:47 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 570
UK
rb446 Offline
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UK
Dyno's are just a tuning tool, fact, however here in the uk I don't know what dyno's were used but I know of 2 cars that were tested and both those cars weight/mph@the track showed pretty much spot on dyno numbers. Whether this was just luck I'm not sure.

One of which was the car I crewed on last year. Dyno'd@695fwhp at EDF......weight@the line 3800lbs.+/- a few either way with the slicks, best mph last year was 130.14 on a perfect day with no headwind, plenty of 129+runs......thats 680hp, this is through the same carb/timing as dyno run but with all ancillaries and a full exhaust system with an air cleaner, basically as it drives on the street.

wallace has it with 680fwhp/3800lbs>

60 Foot E.T. : 1.44 Seconds
1/8 Mile E.T. : 6.52 Seconds
1/8 Mile Trap Speed : 104.22 MPH
1/4 Mile E.T. : 10.34 Seconds
1/4 Mile Trap Speed : 130 MPH
its gone a best of 10.35 with a best 60 of 1.431

so not saying dyno's are the be all they are certainly not, weight/mph is your dyno just sometimes at least here they showed pretty accurate numbers twice that I know of.

Last edited by rb446; 08/30/21 10:48 AM.

1969 'Cuda 446ci, best 9.96@133.9 in 1990
1971 340 'Cuda, best 11.01@122.8 in 1987
Re: Dyno Dissappointment [Re: rb446] #2958968
08/30/21 10:59 AM
08/30/21 10:59 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
GTX MATT Offline
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Posts: 5,161
CT
Dyno results through an automatic can sometimes be misleading, especially with a higher stall converter. Some produce realistic results, some read super low.

That power may be dead on but we need more info because you’ve got a lot missing. Does the car feel strong to you? If you really want to know if it makes the power it should take it to the track and see what the trap speed is.


Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
Re: Dyno Dissappointment [Re: 70VERT] #2958980
08/30/21 11:32 AM
08/30/21 11:32 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,061
Atlanta, GA
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mgoblue9798 Offline
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Atlanta, GA
If you did not buy a higher compression piston for it then the results sound about right.

Re: Dyno Dissappointment [Re: fast68plymouth] #2958994
08/30/21 12:17 PM
08/30/21 12:17 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 695
Southern Alberta
Uberpube Offline
mopar
Uberpube  Offline
mopar

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 695
Southern Alberta
Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
Quote
The stack has to be matched to the machines drum weight, if you use someone elses stack(dyno computer module), you'll get whacked readings.


My friends bought both of their dynos new from Dyno Jet...... complete with whatever electronics were needed to go along with them.



Still should be checked, you have to send your stack in every once in awhile for a chip that expires, also your software disk is serialized as well with the dyno particulars.
My old and new dyno produced pretty much the same numbers when the same car was run on both.

Re: Dyno Dissappointment [Re: GTX MATT] #2959196
08/30/21 09:21 PM
08/30/21 09:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,819
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
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Kirkland, Washington
Originally Posted by GTX MATT
Dyno results through an automatic can sometimes be misleading, especially with a higher stall converter. Some produce realistic results, some read super low.

That power may be dead on but we need more info because you’ve got a lot missing. Does the car feel strong to you? If you really want to know if it makes the power it should take it to the track and see what the trap speed is.


Why? The dyno is measuring power at the wheels, how it’s transmitted is irrelevant at that point.

Re: Dyno Dissappointment [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #2959246
08/30/21 10:33 PM
08/30/21 10:33 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 1,267
Denver, CO
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BigBlockGTS Offline
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Denver, CO
Yes Pacnorthcuda but with an accurate weight and a couple of runs to get a trap speed, the horsepower can be calculated and that will be accurate. His 60 foot times and traction are irrelevant. It would either confirm or call into question what the dyno is telling him

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