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Re: Stock rebuild with a few legal upgrades [Re: HotRodDave] #2946249
07/23/21 02:21 AM
07/23/21 02:21 AM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Originally Posted by HotRodDave
the 392 cam will not work in your block, what you want for cheap, easy, effective is a 6.1 cam from an automatic car (manual trans cars did not have MDS)


My info tells me that NO 6.1 engines had MDS. That alone is a deal breaker.
I'd like a bit more cam than a stock 5.7, something that will not throw an MIL code and not require a "tune". The assclowns in this state have cracked down on computer controlled aftermarket "tunes" even if they do not increase emissions.

Re: Stock rebuild with a few legal upgrades [Re: Kern Dog] #2946284
07/23/21 09:18 AM
07/23/21 09:18 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,397
Toronto Ontario, Can
Glen440 Offline
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You need to talk to a shop that specializes in the new hemi cars. BFNY, HHP or MMX. I think the mds limits how aggressive the lobes can be.

A cam and headers should wake it up. Throttle body will likely have zero gains at its hp. The intake opening is the restriction, its the same as the throttle body.


87 dakota 6.1 hemi
Re: Stock rebuild with a few legal upgrades [Re: Glen440] #2946345
07/23/21 01:09 PM
07/23/21 01:09 PM
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Kalispell Mt.
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HotRodDave Offline
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It takes about 5 minutes to open the intake manifold up to fit a 90MM throttle body, been there done that. It made it much more responsive to throttle input, WOT power didn't seem much if any improvement but part throttle is very much improved with a bigger throttle body. Probably want to get a bored factory throttle body as the electronics in the cheap chinese ones are not good, I am just about ready to make a post to report my findings on them.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Stock rebuild with a few legal upgrades [Re: HotRodDave] #2946574
07/24/21 10:17 AM
07/24/21 10:17 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,397
Toronto Ontario, Can
Glen440 Offline
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The 2 intakes I have, a 6.1 and a car plastic from an early 5.7. They cannot go bigger without machining the seal groove flat. The opening is 80mm and 90mm puts them in the seal groove. Maybe the 6.4 intake has more room.


87 dakota 6.1 hemi
Re: Stock rebuild with a few legal upgrades [Re: Glen440] #2955884
08/21/21 02:28 AM
08/21/21 02:28 AM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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I am back revisiting this topic.
I momentarily considered just buying a low mile 2012-2015 truck just to save some time and effort. Doing that would reset the clock back about 250-280,000 miles but cost me about $19,000 to $25,000.
I like the truck that I have. It isn't easy to find a newer regular cab, short bed in a color that I like. Black, white and all those silver-gray-granite color trucks bore the hell out of me. I don't want a Quad Cab either.
I talked to my Machinist. He is familiar with the 5.7 Hemi so I'm going to look for a good core to have him rebuild for me. If I can get away with a hone and new rings, that would be great. If I have to bore the block, that is fine too. Here in CA, they recently passed some BS legislation that prohibits anyone from installing a "tune" to computer controlled vehicles. If the emission testing guy finds evidence of any non stock tune in the history, they deny the smog certificate. This means I need to keep the engine within the limits of the stock settings. I'd like to use a bigger cam that would provide some improvement without triggering a check engine light or requiring a "tune".
I'm already on board with switching to deeper axle gearing, at least 3.92 but maybe as much as a 4.10. The additional gearing will help with towing as well as making the truck feel more peppy in everyday driving. Also, after 366,000 miles, I'm guessing that the fuel injectors could stand to be douched out. I'm anxious to see how the truck runs with a fresh mill and more gear...

Re: Stock rebuild with a few legal upgrades [Re: Kern Dog] #2955951
08/21/21 12:01 PM
08/21/21 12:01 PM
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Central Pa
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moparjim79 Offline
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I'm really curious if there is anyone out there who just added a stroker kit to their engine and kept all the other factory related bits and tune, and mds. It would be neat to hear what their experience with the project was like and if it was worth it.

Maybe you could be that guy Franken?

Re: Stock rebuild with a few legal upgrades [Re: moparjim79] #2956031
08/21/21 04:08 PM
08/21/21 04:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Yeah, I guess that I could.

Re: Stock rebuild with a few legal upgrades [Re: Kern Dog] #2956165
08/21/21 11:15 PM
08/21/21 11:15 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Lots of ideas rolling through my head,
I was out at several wrecking yards today and saw something like 15 or more Hemi equipped cars, trucks and Durangos. Man....The intake manifold on the Durango models is right up under the base of the windshield. I don't know how you could R & R a 5.7 in one of those without lifting up the body. Removal in a junkyard isn't easy either. Guys out here are cutting the frames to let the engine and trans drop down low enough to remove.

JY 9.JPGJY 10.JPGJY 5.JPG
Re: Stock rebuild with a few legal upgrades [Re: Kern Dog] #2956193
08/22/21 02:49 AM
08/22/21 02:49 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
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Granite Bay CA
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Looking at pricing online, what was a $2000 price for a 4.05 stroke rotating assembly is now closer to $3000 if they are even available. To me, that looks like $3200 with tax plus shipping to gain maybe 45 HP. That might not be worth it to me. I'm already looking at swapping in a 3.92 gear so that alone will help. Maybe a lower mile used engine with clean injectors would perform better than what I have right now.
I learned that while the first generation of the 5.7 Hemi is from 2003 to 2008, the MDS feature only came along in late 2005 so any replacement engine would need to be in that range. An increase in power over a stock mill is great but not if the costs keep going up like this.

Last edited by Frankenduster; 08/22/21 02:50 AM.
Re: Stock rebuild with a few legal upgrades [Re: Kern Dog] #2956301
08/22/21 01:12 PM
08/22/21 01:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,115
A Red State
SNK-EYZ Offline
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We're in the process of doing a rebuild/stroker upgrade on the5.7 thatcame in Kayse's (wife) 2006 Charger Daytona.

The guy building it (Dan aka qwkmopardan on here) just ordered the Molnar crank and rods.
With everything for the reciprocating assembly he said to expect about $2600-2800 for that these days.

By the time it's all said and done I expect an easy $5-6k in the engine at least.
Kayse will NEVER sell the car so what ever gives her more power and makes her happy is fine with me. laugh2

As far and pulling the engine in a Durango, to do the engine swap in out 2004 Durango I pulled the intake off and made a bracket that bolts to the heads to pull the engine.
It's still a royal pain to access everything else just to unbolt it.
Online it says it's easier to remove the body with a 2 post lift to access everything.

I can see why they would just cut the frame rails in a salvage yard to pull the engine, it would be far easier to do to get the engine and trans out.


Kayse can't keep up at all now. lol
Re: Stock rebuild with a few legal upgrades [Re: SNK-EYZ] #2956378
08/22/21 04:55 PM
08/22/21 04:55 PM
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Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Originally Posted by SNK-EYZ


I can see why they would just cut the frame rails in a salvage yard to pull the engine, it would be far easier to do to get the engine and trans out.


It makes me wonder though if the owners of the junkyards are bothered by the practice. Yeah, they get a sale but in the process, sometimes fenders get sawed through along with other collateral damage.

I was out there in the mix today. I had help today getting a rear axle out of a truck. For you east coast guys, you'd wig out at what we have out here. Clean, dry parts that barely need any help to remove. A few spritzes of PB Blaster and a short breaker bar and *CRACK* the nuts came loose. Hardware can usually be used again. Getting the axle out was easy. The truck had NO bed on it so access was great.
Then.....
These axles are heavy! I've pulled and bought several 8 1/4" and 8 3/4" axles and hauled them myself. I can lift and move them with a little bit of grunting. This is a 9 1/4" truck unit with rotors and calipers. The axle tubes are 3 1/2", maybe bigger. While loading, my buddy slipped and fell....injuring his knee. I had to take a board from the back of another truck and break it down for him to use as a crutch. I helped him out, loaded the tools and was aiming to just leave the axle where it was. It was on HIS wheelbarrow though. I helped him to the truck and put the tools away. On his insistence, I went back and wheeled the axle up to the building, paid for it and plan to return for it tomorrow. My buddy and I are even now....In 2016 I hurt my back helping him load a front and rear axle from a truck that he parted out!

Re: Stock rebuild with a few legal upgrades [Re: Kern Dog] #2956593
08/23/21 01:47 PM
08/23/21 01:47 PM
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Kalispell Mt.
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HotRodDave Offline
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The intake comes off pretty easy actually, then you got lots of room to get to upper trans bolts, lift engine...

I still think the 6.1 is the easy way, if nothing else a lot of people are putting all the 6.1 guts in 5.7 blocks (including pistons) and I can tell you from experience it runs just fine, no CEL, stock tune.

On the later ones you can even put in a 6.4, I am currently runnin a 6.4 in my 2011 5.7 truck and you could never tell the difference under the hood unless you spot the BGE on the side of the block or in the computer as it's also stock tune. It adds typically around 10% fuel but it it is still within the allowable 25% before it would trigger a code.

The computers adapt pretty well to the bigger better engines, sure a tune would probably help butt it is still much better than the 5.7.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Stock rebuild with a few legal upgrades [Re: HotRodDave] #2956764
08/23/21 09:43 PM
08/23/21 09:43 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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The pricing on a used 6.1 engine is not even close to reasonable around here. I'd run a used one if I could. I do wonder about how it would pass a test given the wild cam it has.

Re: Stock rebuild with a few legal upgrades [Re: Kern Dog] #2956779
08/23/21 10:34 PM
08/23/21 10:34 PM
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HotRodDave Offline
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They only look for codes right? Plug the scanner in, look for codes, no codes no problem. They are not checking to see if it makes the exact same HCs, NOX CO2... just checking if it all is working within the factory parameters. The cam is not big enough to cause misfires or else they could not run it in a 6.1 either. No misfire, not too lean then no codes. A reman 5.7 is $3700-$4200 ish, I can buy a low miles 6.1 right now for $3000, I know if I had the choice witch one I would run. Heck you can sell the intake for good money as you won't need it and get a good chunk of that back too boot. 6.1s start around $3500 on flea bay and carpart


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Stock rebuild with a few legal upgrades [Re: HotRodDave] #2956784
08/23/21 10:57 PM
08/23/21 10:57 PM
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I believe he's in California, the state that just passed legislation stating that you can't "aftermarket tune" the engine anymore.

The different tone ring on the crank means he can't run a 2009 or later engine.

The swap you did is more of a bolt in.

On the 2004 era Durango's (AWD/4wd) you can't get at the torque convertor bolts with the engine sitting on the engine mounts.
The aluminum bracket that bolts the engine to the trans at the bottom won't even come out until you lift the engine up.
You can unbolt the bracket, but you can't move it out of the way to get at the torque convertor bolts.


Kayse can't keep up at all now. lol
Re: Stock rebuild with a few legal upgrades [Re: SNK-EYZ] #2956797
08/23/21 11:50 PM
08/23/21 11:50 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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The 6.1 engines didn't have MDS. My truck does. I would guess that without the MDS wiring being connected, the MIL would stay on.
(Malfunction Indicator Light)

Re: Stock rebuild with a few legal upgrades [Re: Kern Dog] #2956969
08/24/21 02:51 PM
08/24/21 02:51 PM
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Posts: 10,115
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Originally Posted by Frankenduster
The 6.1 engines didn't have MDS. My truck does. I would guess that without the MDS wiring being connected, the MIL would stay on.
(Malfunction Indicator Light)


Yes, and that would require a tune to keep the light off and not throw a DTC code.

California is making life difficult for car owners. fan


Kayse can't keep up at all now. lol
Re: Stock rebuild with a few legal upgrades [Re: SNK-EYZ] #2957613
08/26/21 01:28 PM
08/26/21 01:28 PM
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HotRodDave Offline
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You guys are right, I was scratching my head wondering how we got away with it on that one, that truck was an 04 with no MDS.

We did one (non MDS 5.7 into a MDS 1/2 ton) on a 2011 and it would not set the CEL or trigger an MDS code if we always ran it in manual 5th gear, if we left it in "drive" it would set the code and turn on the light as soon as it tried to use the MDS.

You could still put in a 6.1 long block and use your MDS cam, lifters and solenoids, you would still have more compression, displacement, cylinder head flow... I did a similar thing on my current ram 2500, I put in a 6.4 BGE short block with 5.7 cam, heads, intake, exhaust... makes awesome TQ and the stock computer is running it all just fine.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



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