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Made it to the track, a little disappointed. #2951671
08/08/21 12:47 PM
08/08/21 12:47 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 132
Ontario, Canada
500ciBee Offline OP
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Haven't been to the track in 8 years and finally got out yesterday. It was a Mopar show and shine, test and tune day. Bunch of nice Mopars. Last time out the car ran 13.0 at 109. No wheel spin just gutless down low. 60' was in the 2.150 range. The car would get moving after 4500 rpm and pull nicely to 6500rpm.
At that time the car had:
750 Dominator
Weiand Team G single plane
Unknown cam with a wiped lobe

I wanted to improve the street drivability and pickup the low end torque, so I changed to:
850 Holley DP
Eddy Performer RPM intake
COMP Cams Xtreme Energy CCA-21-227-4
Advertised Duration:
275 int./287 exh.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:
0.525 int./0.525 exh.
Lobe Separation (degrees):
110
Street manners are better and low end torque improved but it falls on its face at 5600-5700. I knew I was making a tradeoff for more bottom end and less top end but I didn't expect it to be as drastic as it was.
The car ran a best of 13.51 at 101 yesterday shifting at 5500rpm. Used to shift at 6300. Best 60' was 1.921 with a bit of wheel spin. I was hoping for about 12.7 at 108
Do you think the cam is solely to blame for the poor top end?

20210808_130249.jpg

1970 Super Bee prostreet. 383, SMR 727, Dana 60 4:88. Building a 512 low deck.
Re: Made it to the track, a little disappointed. [Re: 500ciBee] #2951677
08/08/21 01:08 PM
08/08/21 01:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,098
West Plains, MO
DrCharles Offline
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Is your engine the 383 mentioned in the .sig? work
A .525" lift cam isn't much even for a 383... I can see that running out of breath at 5700.
Are the valve springs matched to the cam? scope

Re: Made it to the track, a little disappointed. [Re: DrCharles] #2951680
08/08/21 01:23 PM
08/08/21 01:23 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 132
Ontario, Canada
500ciBee Offline OP
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Yes, pretty much stock 383.
The lift is almost identical to the cam that I took out. Same valve springs.


1970 Super Bee prostreet. 383, SMR 727, Dana 60 4:88. Building a 512 low deck.
Re: Made it to the track, a little disappointed. [Re: 500ciBee] #2951695
08/08/21 01:53 PM
08/08/21 01:53 PM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 5,838
Super Spudsville
Mr PotatoHead Online rolleyes
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Mr PotatoHead  Online Rolleyes
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IMO you just seeing real world street car 383 times. Id of even kept the older intake.



Cam specs tell a lot.



Brand:
COMP Cams
Manufacturer's Part Number:
21-227-4
Part Type:
Camshafts
Product Line:
COMP Cams Xtreme Energy Hi-Lift Camshafts
Summit Racing Part Number:
CCA-21-227-4
UPC:
036584078319
Cam Style:
Hydraulic flat tappet
Basic Operating RPM Range:
2,000-5,800
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift:
231
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift:
237
Duration at 050 inch Lift:
231 int./237 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration:
275
Advertised Exhaust Duration:
287
Advertised Duration:
275 int./287 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:
0.525 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:
0.525 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:
0.525 int./0.525 exh.
Lobe Separation (degrees):
110
Camshaft Gear Attachment:
1-bolt
Computer-Controlled Compatible:
No
Grind Number:
CRB XE275HL-10
Valve Springs Required:
Yes
Quantity:
Sold individually.
Notes:
Single-bolt camshaft.


STOP POTATO HATE!
Re: Made it to the track, a little disappointed. [Re: 500ciBee] #2951735
08/08/21 03:00 PM
08/08/21 03:00 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 589
TN
1DGEMAN Offline
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Sounds like the valve springs are dead. Same springs from 8 years ago? How many miles?


Real Men shift for themselves
Re: Made it to the track, a little disappointed. [Re: Mr PotatoHead] #2951736
08/08/21 03:01 PM
08/08/21 03:01 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 84
ohio
2
2264PLY Offline
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ohio
I dont think its that bad. Its more of a starting point. Im curious about the rest of your combination. Gear,converter,heads&car wieght. where your shifting at.

Re: Made it to the track, a little disappointed. [Re: 1DGEMAN] #2951743
08/08/21 03:20 PM
08/08/21 03:20 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 132
Ontario, Canada
500ciBee Offline OP
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The springs are probably 20 years old. Might have 1000 miles on them total. 8 passes that I've done. When I changed the cam I had a shop look over the springs and they were good. The open pressure was at the upper end of what the cam calls for.


1970 Super Bee prostreet. 383, SMR 727, Dana 60 4:88. Building a 512 low deck.
Re: Made it to the track, a little disappointed. [Re: 2264PLY] #2951745
08/08/21 03:28 PM
08/08/21 03:28 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 132
Ontario, Canada
500ciBee Offline OP
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My expectations weren't very high. Just thought by improving the 60" by a few tenths would lead to a few more tenths off at the end.
4.88 gears
33" tire
3500 stall
Don't know what the weight is. Tubbed with a cage. Not much interior.
Shifted at 5500

https://youtu.be/8xeiaGZZCdc

Last edited by 500ciBee; 08/08/21 03:38 PM.

1970 Super Bee prostreet. 383, SMR 727, Dana 60 4:88. Building a 512 low deck.
Re: Made it to the track, a little disappointed. [Re: 500ciBee] #2951751
08/08/21 03:53 PM
08/08/21 03:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,774
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah Offline
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I can see a stockksh 383 in a heavy car making 300 or so to the tire with that combo. The performer intake will definitely limit the power band in my experience. I would thinf the RPM would be good to at least 6500 on a stock stroke 383. While not 100% apples to apples my 451 with a comp 294h and 1.6's hits a wall at 5800 or so with a performer and stock 1968 bb a body manifolds with the exhaust corked or uncorked.. It acted the same with a performer RPM and headers on the dyno.

My advice would be a 125 or 150hp shot of nitrous. Keep the streetability 95% of the time. Change the timing and warm up that bottle and you are ready to party.

Last edited by Jeremiah; 08/08/21 03:57 PM.


Re: Made it to the track, a little disappointed. [Re: 500ciBee] #2951761
08/08/21 04:02 PM
08/08/21 04:02 PM
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Posts: 583
Missouri
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jwb123 Offline
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Since you do not have the old cams specs, hard to speculate, but first thing I would do is do a compression test and get an idea of how much cylinder pressure you have. If you don't have 135 to 140 on a cranking compression test, I would advance the camshaft and try it again. The big drop in MPH tells me you lost HP somewhere. My experience is mopars like a like of ignition timing, 38 to 40 degrees is where most big blocks wind up on the dyno. And of course what do the plugs look like? Is your fuel system up to feeding your combo at 6,000rpm? These are the things I would check first.

Re: Made it to the track, a little disappointed. [Re: 500ciBee] #2951762
08/08/21 04:03 PM
08/08/21 04:03 PM
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Hot 340 Offline
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Stock manifolds or headers?

Re: Made it to the track, a little disappointed. [Re: Hot 340] #2951789
08/08/21 04:43 PM
08/08/21 04:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,680
So. Burlington, Vt.
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fast68plymouth Offline
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Fast rate hyd cam = won’t rev.
That’s your mechanical rev limiter.

Especially with what’s out there for hyd lifters these days.

A SFT is really a much better match for something that has the potential to run at higher rpm.

That cam would make decent power, up to the rpm limit imposed by the lifters.

Quote
Do you think the cam is solely to blame for the poor top end?


Not so much the cam, as the lifters........ but the fast rate cam will find the limit of the lifters sooner than a cam with long slow lobes.

Pull a couple of springs, measure the installed height, and have them tested.
If they are 125-135 closed, 300-340 open...... they’re not your problem.



68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Made it to the track, a little disappointed. [Re: Hot 340] #2951797
08/08/21 04:50 PM
08/08/21 04:50 PM
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Sobieski Wi
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bee1971 Offline
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That same cam and lifters in my 383/432 Stroker is done by 5400 RPMs

I have tried just about everything

Street Car - 1971 Superbee / Auto / 3:91 Sure Grip

Edelbrock E Street 75cc Heads

10.5-1 Compression

Most everyone I have talked to say , ( Hydraulic Lifters ) and Fast Ramp Camshaft

That’s all she wrote




Last edited by bee1971; 08/08/21 05:01 PM.

1971 Dodge Charger Superbee
2011 Ram Sport 1500 Quad Cab Deep Water Blue Loaded
Siberian Huskies
Re: Made it to the track, a little disappointed. [Re: jwb123] #2951800
08/08/21 04:51 PM
08/08/21 04:51 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 132
Ontario, Canada
500ciBee Offline OP
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I did a compression test in the spring and the highest was 190 the lowest 175. The rest were all about 180-185. I don't remember what timing I had back then but I have it set at a total of 35 now.


1970 Super Bee prostreet. 383, SMR 727, Dana 60 4:88. Building a 512 low deck.
Re: Made it to the track, a little disappointed. [Re: bee1971] #2951802
08/08/21 04:53 PM
08/08/21 04:53 PM
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Sobieski Wi
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bee1971 Offline
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Fast 68 beat me by 7 minutes

LOL

And he is one of the guys I talked to about Lifters with that Cam


1971 Dodge Charger Superbee
2011 Ram Sport 1500 Quad Cab Deep Water Blue Loaded
Siberian Huskies
Re: Made it to the track, a little disappointed. [Re: Hot 340] #2951803
08/08/21 04:54 PM
08/08/21 04:54 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 132
Ontario, Canada
500ciBee Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Hot 340
Stock manifolds or headers?

1-7/8 Hooker long tube with 3" exhaust.


1970 Super Bee prostreet. 383, SMR 727, Dana 60 4:88. Building a 512 low deck.
Re: Made it to the track, a little disappointed. [Re: 500ciBee] #2951805
08/08/21 04:57 PM
08/08/21 04:57 PM
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Sobieski Wi
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bee1971 Offline
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Originally Posted by 500ciBee
I did a compression test in the spring and the highest was 190 the lowest 175. The rest were all about 180-185. I don't remember what timing I had back then but I have it set at a total of 35 now.


I am at 195 psi cold on all eight cylinders

34 Degrees Total


5400 RPMs Dead

Last edited by bee1971; 08/08/21 04:58 PM.

1971 Dodge Charger Superbee
2011 Ram Sport 1500 Quad Cab Deep Water Blue Loaded
Siberian Huskies
Re: Made it to the track, a little disappointed. [Re: bee1971] #2951806
08/08/21 04:59 PM
08/08/21 04:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,680
So. Burlington, Vt.
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fast68plymouth Offline
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Occasionally I read where someone has had success running a fast rate hyd cam with hyd lifters and carrying the power into the upper rpms.

Particularly in a BB application, in 31 years of dyno testing....... I have never experienced that.
In any brand of engine.

Usually in a BB, they’re “done” before 6k.

Success at high rpm with a fast rate hyd cam/hyd lifters in a BB would be the rare exception..... rather than the rule.

All that being said........ that’s not to say that curing the high rpm capability of your motor would.......without changing anything else...........make huge impact on the ET.

If you have an adjustable valvetrain already, the down and dirty test/solution would be to install solid lifters on that cam and run the lash at like .004-.005.
You’d need lifters and pushrods.
Provided the springs are good, that would buy you somewhere between 700-1000 extra rpm.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Made it to the track, a little disappointed. [Re: fast68plymouth] #2951808
08/08/21 05:04 PM
08/08/21 05:04 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 132
Ontario, Canada
500ciBee Offline OP
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500ciBee  Offline OP
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Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
Fast rate hyd cam = won’t rev.
That’s your mechanical rev limiter.

Especially with what’s out there for hyd lifters these days.

A SFT is really a much better match for something that has the potential to run at higher rpm.

That cam would make decent power, up to the rpm limit imposed by the lifters.

Quote
Do you think the cam is solely to blame for the poor top end?


Not so much the cam, as the lifters........ but the fast rate cam will find the limit of the lifters sooner than a cam with long slow lobes.

Pull a couple of springs, measure the installed height, and have them tested.
If they are 125-135 closed, 300-340 open...... they’re not your problem.



Thanks! I went with new but same lifters that the other cam used. Thought if it worked for that one then should work for the new cam.
I posted pictures of the old cam in an old thread and you thought it was an MP cam. The springs are a dual spring and open pressures were quite high. The shop said it was about as much as they would run.

cam 1jpg.jpgcam 2.jpg

1970 Super Bee prostreet. 383, SMR 727, Dana 60 4:88. Building a 512 low deck.
Re: Made it to the track, a little disappointed. [Re: bee1971] #2951809
08/08/21 05:06 PM
08/08/21 05:06 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 132
Ontario, Canada
500ciBee Offline OP
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500ciBee  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by bee1971
Originally Posted by 500ciBee
I did a compression test in the spring and the highest was 190 the lowest 175. The rest were all about 180-185. I don't remember what timing I had back then but I have it set at a total of 35 now.


I am at 195 psi cold on all eight cylinders

34 Degrees Total


5400 RPMs Dead

Ok thanks! That answers that. More incentive to start collecting parts for the stroker.


1970 Super Bee prostreet. 383, SMR 727, Dana 60 4:88. Building a 512 low deck.
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