Well I just recently got my Cuda running with the new 511 that made 742/700 on the dyno. I added a twin disc clutch with the factory 23 spline trans along with a Strange Dana 60 and new beefy driveline with 1350 joints. I knew the 833 wasn’t up to the task but I had hoped it would hold up for a while until I could afford something else.
Well the first time down the strip under decent power it blew 3rd gear.
I am looking at the tremec magnum 600, also the 5-speeds. Can I upgrade the 5 speed to handle the power? There is also gforce and Hightower transmissions. I’m not too familiar with any of them. This is a street/strip car.
I would like to hear others experience and recommendations.

Nice.
I'm not sure but I think the 6060 type stuff has a tall 1st gear.
If you are a serious stick shifter and cant stop yourself from driving it like you stole it.....like me an aftermarket box like a Jerico or GForce...like I have is a must in my experience.
Get a clutch assisted type so you can downshift.
Available in H pattern and inline shifters.
OEM 833 is an awesome box,but won't tolerate torq. and a sticky clutch at the same time.

What does it take to put a Gforce in? I do want something that I can abuse.

Your clutch broke your gearbox. That clutch will keep breaking whatever you put behind it. If you buy a gearbox that it doesn’t break, it will kill other parts. So you have two options. Sell that parts breaking clutch and put the money you get out of it into a good clutch. You need an adjustable clutch with a sintered iron disc. Advanced Clutches, Black Magic Clutches, Hyatt (if his son is still doing clutches) will set you up with a clutch that won’t break parts and you can tune the clutch.

If you aren’t that serious about clutch tuning then you need to look up the “clutch tamer” on the web and have Grant hook you up with one of his clutch tamers. His stuff is significantly cheaper than a sintered iron clutch. If you go this route you can keep the clutch you have.

I prefer a tunable clutch but you can get it done with the clutch tamer. Both of these solutions are significantly less expensive than buying a new gear box.

I always talk to a guy at the track who is a stick shift racer. He runs in a heads up crate engine class with a clutch setup just like madscientist said.
When I first met him he ran a tremec but now runs a G-force G101A. He always tuning his clutch for the track. He run high 9s at legal weight in a fox body.
I was thinking of putting a stick in my car since we have a group that bracket races them but too much money and work for me.
You will have to hack the TB cross member to get a Gforce in an e-body

A GForce 101A is what I have..4speed.
Box isn't a serious issue, shifter is what needs the modifications.
Its pretty big and they only offer one mounting position.

.IMO. the clutch is the biggest problem with a fast stickcar.
Your basic options are.
Slip the clutch
Slip the tires
Leave low enough to drive into the power.

833's just as expensive as aftermarket boxes.
Hard decision is realistic goals and budget.
Personally I would not run a "stock " box in anything faster than mid 11"s unless it was a "once in a blue moon " track car.
Yellow Bullet has a good stickshift forum under Hutches transmission fourm.
Stocker/Super Stocker guys can be a good source of how stuff fits.
Talk to Dan Brewer about 833 limitations, call the listed clutch shops and weight your options.

One needs to understand where the torque spikes that kill a transmission actually come from. It's usually not the engine's torque alone that kills a transmission, the culprit is often a mis-matched clutch that draws far more torque than the engine actually produces. For example if you stick a 800ftlb clutch behind a 500ftlb engine, when you dump that clutch the input shaft is going to see 800ftlbs if it doesn't break something or spin the tires first. Doesn't matter that the engine is only making 500ftlbs, that 800ftlb clutch is going to draw an additional 300ftlbs of inertia out of the engine's rotating assy before it begins to slip.

Here's a graph showing evidence of that additional torque being pulled out of an engine's rotating assy.
Red is engine rpm
Blue is accel G
Green is driveshaft rpm



Notice that all the highest points of the Accel "G" trace occur while the engine's rotating assy is losing rpm. But as soon as the clutch stops pulling engine the down and engine rpm begins to climb, that G trace then drops like a rock as now engine torque alone is now accelerating the car.

An engine's entire rotating assy (crankshaft/flywheel/pressure plate/balancer/etc) is one big flywheel style energy storage device. You must put energy into it to speed it up, you must take energy out of it to slow it down. While engine rpm is climbing, engine torque alone is accelerating the car. When you see the clutch pulling the engine rpm down against WOT, it's because that clutch is drawing more torque than the engine is actually producing.

Grant

Clutch isn`t breaking boxes down track.
Your shifting timing can.& Too much air gap pounds the drivetrain....

Either way you cut it.
original poster needs to do some research and weigh his options.
Measure twice cut once logic will save money and frustration,,,,

What bellhousing,flywheel etc is used with the Gforce. 6bbl yes I only want to do one swap and I do understand a good trans will cost me.
Thank you for the input.

If you make it past the launch, clutches can definitely break transmissions down the track. On the graph above, just look at the size of those wheelspeed spikes after the shifts. Also look at how fast the engine is losing rpm during those spikes. Sudden loss of 2000+ rpm after the shift dumps a lot of inertia on the input shaft, as you can see the clutch on that pass had way too much clamp pressure for efficient shifts. The only reason that it did not blow the tires off during launch? ...look at the slower rate that the engine was getting pulled down during launch vs the shifts. That overkill clutch was being held back during launch by a ClutchTamer.

Quick bit of hillbilly physics- the energy contained in a rotating assy increases exponentially with rpm.
...Lets say a rotating assy spinning at 1000rpm contains 1 unit of inertia.
...Double the rpm to 2000, now it contains 4 units of inertia.
...Spin it up to 7174rpm like the launch on the graph, now it contains 51.46 units. The clutch then pulls the engine down to 4630rpm from 7174, that's 30.03 units of energy getting dumped into the input shaft in 0.589sec.
...After the shift, the engine gets pulled down from 7820rpm to 5132rpm. That's 34.82 units of energy getting dumped into the input shaft in only 0.163sec. Far more concentrated hit on the input shaft.

Launch didn't even spin the tires. The shifts knocked the tires completely loose, most of that 34.82 units of energy released after the 1/2 shift was wasted in instant wheelspin. As you can see, the shifts on the graph put far more hurt on the input shaft than the launch did.

Grant

2,000 RPM on a shift????
Not a realistic number.
Holy cow....my pickup only drops about 800 pulling the car LOL.😉

Put too much clutch in there and it will drop nearly the full amount that the ratio change predicts. The example in the graph dropped 2688rpm in 0.163sec after the 1/2 shift. G101A box, 3.17/1.96/1.34/1.00 ratios.

Grant

Weed burner, I understand what you’re saying about clutches. But I don’t think it’s what broke my trans.
I was making a easy test pass and easing into the throttle after shifts. It’s a moot point for this thread as I’m trying to figure out what trans to run. I will keep what you said mind when I choose a clutch this time around and get more advice on that subject and make an educated decision.

What I see, as a non professional racer, is using a 23 spline behind that kind of hp/tq, engine is the first red flag. A 23 spline is good for only 500lb/ft. An 18 spline is good for up to 650! I run a heavy B body, (3950), with me in it. Based on mph and the weight of the car, my engine is making 600 plus hp at flywheel. I run a slick shifted 18 spline with a Dual Friction Centerforce clutch. Been running this combo since the early 1980’s. Never broke a tranny!!!!! Just food for thought. No need to go big bucks on a street/ strip car.

I don’t mean to be rude, but you are breaking parts because of the clutch. I’ve been drag racing stick shift Chrysler’s since 1980. I broke a ton of stuff that you can’t imagine. I trashed 35 spline axles. Twisted 23 spline inputs like pretzels. I shredded 3rd gear clean to the root so many times I could feel it happening while I was letting out of the clutch. And much more.

And all of that stopped when I bought the right clutch and started tuning with it. The clutch can break any part at any time during the run. Your 23 spline input is fine IF you do something about the clutch.

Grant has posted enough info here that it should start making some sense, and I don’t mean that in an offending way. I can be hard to get your mind around what’s happening when the clutch is fragging the best parts you can buy. Let me say it this way.

It’s not about slipping the clutch or the tires. That’s wrong thinking. It’s all about APPLYING the clutch the right amount at the right time. What you have is essentially a toggle switch for a clutch. It’s either on or off. When the plate is against the disc, it is fully locked up. That’s a part killer, an ET killer and it takes the fun right out of a clutch car.

That said, there are two ways to apply the clutch. One is the Clutch Tamer. Grant can fix this if I’m wrong, but in reality his Clutch Tamer slows down the pressure plate as it engages with the disc. It is basically slipping the clutch in a controlled and controllable manner. This does many things, but one big thing is it keeps the aggressive disc and big plate loads from killing your gear box and drive train. You set the Clutch Tamer to apply the plate to the disc to control the application of the clutch. You’ll stop killing parts and your ET’s will drop.

The other way sounds the same but it’s not. With a sintered iron disc and an adjustable pressure plate you control the application of the clutch, but the big difference is the plate (pressure plate if I didn’t make that clear before) is always fully in contact with the disc. So the combination of aggressiveness of the disc, the shape and geometry of the clutch finger, base plate pressure, counter weight (if any) all play in applying the clutch. Unlike the CT, which slowly (relatively slowly) applies the plate to the disc, the Soft Lock set up always has the plate clamping on the disc. I know that may seem like no big difference, but it is different.

There will always be heat generated with either method you use. One is more expensive and I think more tunable, and the other is much, MUCH less expensive (that isn’t a bad thing BTW) and somewhat less tunable.

If you think it over you’ll start to see the differences. Either way, you need to do the one or the other or you will find the next weakest link in the drive train and kill it. I hope this helps you grasp the concept of clutch application and two ways to do it. You have to manage the clutch in some way, otherwise it owns you.

Your ability to shift it and a Bible in the glovebox goes a long way Larry....🙏
Your car is a good example of what "can" be done.
Others may not have your abilities...😉

Mad scientist,
I didn’t take anything as rude. I appreciate everyone’s advice and am going to sit and read through this post more carefully when I get down time. I was running the stock trans and current clutch out of impatience because I want to enjoy this car this summer and need to save funds for something more. And will use all the advice I can get.

It will be cheaper and easier in the long run to put an automatic in there. Either a 727 or something else if you want more gears. Any manual transmission that is going to survive in a heavy car with a bunch of power is going to cost a bunch of money and take a bunch of time. You can build a heavy duty 727 with billet parts and a good converter for $4000 and it will bolt in. If you pick the right converter you'll also be able to drive it on the street as well as make nice solid passes at the track. You'll spend twice that much money for a complete manual, shifter, clutch, bellhousing setup and you'll need to have a chassis shop build a new tunnel in the car for everything to fit.

I just went thru this whole exercise with a customer who dropped a 700 hp 505 inch big block into his B body with a 23 spline transmission. Now he is having a 727 built with billet drum, manual valve body, pro street type torque converter, etc.

Well that might be easier and cheaper but,,,,,,if its not what you want than what's the point?
Easiest approach is sell the car and get a better recliner.
This is a hobby/ sport.
Not saving the world.
Bracket racing is not the only way to enjoy the dragstrip..
If you aren't getting anything out of the challenge and the satisfaction of meeting a goal......well you should not be doing it.
Stickshift stuff isn't for everyone takes a little more time and money and work.
Nobody has ever watched a car tear down the street or strip and say "cool an automatic ".....😏

I think if you had your failed parts analyzed you will find 3rd gear was probably FUBAR'd from the multitude of shock loads it had endured previously. All those stress fractures eventually play connect the dots it just goes boom.

Kevin