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GEN III Hemi parts info #2938497
06/30/21 08:22 PM
06/30/21 08:22 PM
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Katy, TX
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Bakaruda Offline OP
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So I have learned some really cool stuff over the last couple of weeks. I wanted to share with all of you because it can save you a ton of money on your project. I have been buying my parts from this Mopar shop: https://www.eastcoastmoparts.com/
Now for the good stuff. We all swap valve springs. They can be very pricey. 1511's- $489.95, Comp Cams- $365. Okay these are LS parts that work with our motors. Now Mopar has Springs also. Mopar (P5160074) set of 16- $215.60. If you go this route, 68277306AA $4.29 each. Same spring from the kit.
LIFTERS- I have seen them for as much as $1000.00. There is no such thing as a "Hellcat Lifter". The non MDS lifter is what they use. Mopar part # 5038784AD. The set of 4 with yoke is $95.90.
OIL PUMP- Everyone says use the Mopar pump. I grew up on Melling and that is what I bought. Part #10342 $166.00. Mopar Oil Pump #5037687AB $265.68.
Anyway just trying to help those on a budget like me.


1969 Barracuda GENIII Hemi
2019 Ram 1500 Laramie
Re: GEN III Hemi parts info [Re: Bakaruda] #2938558
06/30/21 10:57 PM
06/30/21 10:57 PM
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hudsonhornet7x Offline
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Thanks for the info. That will be of very good use to all who are swapping. What are you building?

Re: GEN III Hemi parts info [Re: hudsonhornet7x] #2938617
07/01/21 08:28 AM
07/01/21 08:28 AM
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Bakaruda Offline OP
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I smoked my 5.7L Hemi in the Cuda. So now I have a 6.1 with all forged internals. It's almost ready to go back in. I have another post to make about the MDS delete just trying to confirm some things. This is what smoked my motor.


1969 Barracuda GENIII Hemi
2019 Ram 1500 Laramie
Re: GEN III Hemi parts info [Re: Bakaruda] #2942016
07/11/21 12:41 PM
07/11/21 12:41 PM
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Thanks. Working on doing a Gen 3 into a 72. Can use any info i can get. So if using computer that are stand along, why cant you use MDS or VVT ?


1969 Dodge Coronet R/T Convertible
1979 LiL Red x2
2012 Yellow Jacket
2006 mega cab
1977 Trailduster
1979 Trailduster
Re: GEN III Hemi parts info [Re: hulmule] #2942373
07/12/21 04:35 PM
07/12/21 04:35 PM
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I would sure like to see any evidence of how MDS smoked an engine.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: GEN III Hemi parts info [Re: HotRodDave] #2942479
07/12/21 10:21 PM
07/12/21 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by HotRodDave
I would sure like to see any evidence of how MDS smoked an engine.


Dave,

For several years I have followed and listened very closely to things you've said, seen, and done. I pay attention to your insight and experiences. You've got you're finger on the pulse quite decently- but you have not seen everything. And there's no arguing MDS can fail and frag a hemi. It happens, it happened numerous times, it will continue to happen. Dont believe me or the OP? Just Google it. You already know I've had the failure. I'd bet there's more on this board who have suffered it as well and nary a peep from it. Please stop saying it does not exist.

Re: GEN III Hemi parts info [Re: Bakaruda] #2942537
07/13/21 06:36 AM
07/13/21 06:36 AM
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At first glance, this replacement Dorman MDS lifter transducer looks like an injector, as many of its parts act similar to an injector's. These often get clogged with particles from the oil. When that happens, the lifters can fail if the solenoid is not replaced.

A common scenario with the MDS system in Hemis is where the ECM believes the lifter is engaged at higher rpm when it is not. Here, the internal pin that locks the lifter body to the plunger is still disengaged when the engine rpm goes up. In this failure mode, the roller follows the cam lobe, until it reaches an engine speed where it can't, and the roller crashes repeatedly on the lobe. Eventually, the lifter, roller, needle bearings, and the lobe surface become damaged to the point of failure.


^ right from MotorTrend. Lifter failures are enough to take out any motor.

Last edited by A39Coronet; 07/13/21 06:39 AM.

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Re: GEN III Hemi parts info [Re: A39Coronet] #2943074
07/14/21 01:43 PM
07/14/21 01:43 PM
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I wonder how many Hemi engines the magazine writer has disassembled and fixed? My guess is ZERO! I have done a hundred cams and lifters in them and no issues with the MDS lifters ever. I just finnished one a couple days ago in my 3/4 ton 5.7 (and many other 3/4 tons) or 6 speed cars that didn't even have MDS, I would like to hear how MDS ruined those... Never have I personally seen a bad MDS lifter and very few pictures on the google machine, most are the non MDS lifter and a lot of miss labeled pictures showing non MDS lifters claiming they are actually bad MDS lifters. I bet the magazine writer can't produce a picture of one either he personally took out of an engine. I have also never seen an MDS solenoid get stuck or go bad in any form. I will not say that there has never been a bad MDS lifter or solenoid butt there is definitely NOT a "common scenario" where they go bad, not even close. The scenario he describes is a lot more like what happens in the chevy AFM engine. They go bad because the needle bearings inside the roller wheel are too small, when they switched to the bigger needle bearing in the lifter the failures quit.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: GEN III Hemi parts info [Re: HotRodDave] #2944235
07/17/21 11:13 AM
07/17/21 11:13 AM
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Trumbauersville PA
ric3xrt Offline
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Originally Posted by HotRodDave

I wonder how many Hemi engines the magazine writer has disassembled and fixed? My guess is ZERO! I have done a hundred cams and lifters in them and no issues with the MDS lifters ever. I just finished one a couple days ago in my 3/4 ton 5.7 (and many other 3/4 tons) or 6 speed cars that didn't even have MDS, I would like to hear how MDS ruined those... Never have I personally seen a bad MDS lifter and very few pictures on the google machine, most are the non MDS lifter and a lot of miss labeled pictures showing non MDS lifters claiming they are actually bad MDS lifters. I bet the magazine writer can't produce a picture of one either he personally took out of an engine. I have also never seen an MDS solenoid get stuck or go bad in any form. I will not say that there has never been a bad MDS lifter or solenoid butt there is definitely NOT a "common scenario" where they go bad, not even close. The scenario he describes is a lot more like what happens in the chevy AFM engine. They go bad because the needle bearings inside the roller wheel are too small, when they switched to the bigger needle bearing in the lifter the failures quit.



I'm going to agree and Disagree with Dave here, 95% of the lifter failures are the NON-MDS lifter........ there was an issue in 15 where MDS lifters where failing due to needle bearings(hence FCA"s "FIX" call all new lifters Hellcat lifters"...marketing it's wonderful thing. )
the failures are due to a combo of issues ,most of the early failures can be linked back to bad valve springs(inconstant valve spring pressures) some too weak to hold the lifter against the Cam, which allowed the lifter to bounce, some too strong which drove the lifter into the lobe.....once FCA realized what was going on spring manufacture was changed, and we all know that it didn't stop the issue...but it cut back the under/over 100Kmile claims by due to lifter failure by 45%

Oddly 09-11 failure rate was 1 in 38k units it went to 1 in 12k between 2012 and 2015, now it's back to 1 in 38k ..it is a problem but GM rate with their D.O.D system is 1 in 15k

For those who don't know the lifters galley is divided in to 4 sections....the oil passage from front to back of the block has a "wall/divider" between the front and rear section on each bank. each MDS solenoid controls 4 of the 16 lifters.

HOW MDS ruins engines... "danger zone" is when the ECO(MDS) light comes off and the engine enters "low lift mode"(between 11MPH and 20 MPH) before the oil pressure " fully pumps up" the MDS lifter. at this point the MDS solenoid is opening and closing depending on throttle demand under 20MPH it's proportional to Throttle demand ,3.79v /full throttle opens the solenoid fully ...after 20 MPH the systems reacts to throttle request differently , it becomes more aggressive in it's opening rate per Throttle request based on RPMs above 1800/1900, it's different per model and engine. but it's roughly anything above 2.10V of throttle request ..(.side note it's the only good thing about those pedal commanders)

When in ECO(MDS activated) the only oil getting to the lifters is from the rocker gear, , the MDS lifters bleed oil out the hole and it runs down and lubes the roller..., the NON MDS lifter's roller only gets trickle down oil from the push rod seat in the top of the lifter...basically what ever seeps past the diameter clearance....In essence till that Solenoid opens up it's being starved for oil...may only be nano seconds...but if that sticks....those 2 NON-MDS rollers in the section of block are going dry.

When in standard operating mode, the lifters are feed from both the rockers and the main oil galley. there are 4 passages that come off the main galley to feed the rocker and Valve gear , about half way up they break off in to a Y which is empties right under the MDS solenoid and feeds the lifters like an Old SB/RB/G2 hemi....or like almost any other V engine ever designed.


Now if you change to a NON-MDS cam, you should remove the Solenoids and replace them with the plugs.....the tips of the solenoid may not be much of an obstruction in the passage, but why have an obstruction when you don't have to.


Now the trick........If you are building a G3 from scratch..........Grove the lifter bore (comp cams has a nice lifter bore grooving tool for the .842 DIA lifters)


And for the record I completely disagree with the " the larger Needle bearings solved the issue comments........the 03-08 5.7s & 06-11 6.1's all used the same NON-MDS lifter and the increase in cam/lifter failures didn't start till spring manufacture was changed in 2012 .....needle bearing change happened in 2015 with the hellcat lifters and went across the board in 2016 and still have the same failure rate as pre- 2012

Last edited by ric3xrt; 07/17/21 11:25 AM.

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Re: GEN III Hemi parts info [Re: Bakaruda] #2944239
07/17/21 11:28 AM
07/17/21 11:28 AM
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Trumbauersville PA
ric3xrt Offline
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Originally Posted by Bakaruda
So I have learned some really cool stuff over the last couple of weeks. I wanted to share with all of you because it can save you a ton of money on your project. I have been buying my parts from this Mopar shop: https://www.eastcoastmoparts.com/
Now for the good stuff. We all swap valve springs. They can be very pricey. 1511's- $489.95, Comp Cams- $365. Okay these are LS parts that work with our motors. Now Mopar has Springs also. Mopar (P5160074) set of 16- $215.60. If you go this route, 68277306AA $4.29 each. Same spring from the kit.
LIFTERS- I have seen them for as much as $1000.00. There is no such thing as a "Hellcat Lifter". The non MDS lifter is what they use. Mopar part # 5038784AD. The set of 4 with yoke is $95.90.
OIL PUMP- Everyone says use the Mopar pump. I grew up on Melling and that is what I bought. Part #10342 $166.00. Mopar Oil Pump #5037687AB $265.68.
Anyway just trying to help those on a budget like me.



I hope Quoting this gets this thread back on topic.....Thanks for the find.


Truth has no agenda, but those with an agenda make their own truth.
Some of us are so open minded they only see their View



Re: GEN III Hemi parts info [Re: ric3xrt] #2944299
07/17/21 02:20 PM
07/17/21 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ric3xrt
Originally Posted by HotRodDave

I wonder how many Hemi engines the magazine writer has disassembled and fixed? My guess is ZERO! I have done a hundred cams and lifters in them and no issues with the MDS lifters ever. I just finished one a couple days ago in my 3/4 ton 5.7 (and many other 3/4 tons) or 6 speed cars that didn't even have MDS, I would like to hear how MDS ruined those... Never have I personally seen a bad MDS lifter and very few pictures on the google machine, most are the non MDS lifter and a lot of miss labeled pictures showing non MDS lifters claiming they are actually bad MDS lifters. I bet the magazine writer can't produce a picture of one either he personally took out of an engine. I have also never seen an MDS solenoid get stuck or go bad in any form. I will not say that there has never been a bad MDS lifter or solenoid butt there is definitely NOT a "common scenario" where they go bad, not even close. The scenario he describes is a lot more like what happens in the chevy AFM engine. They go bad because the needle bearings inside the roller wheel are too small, when they switched to the bigger needle bearing in the lifter the failures quit.



I'm going to agree and Disagree with Dave here, 95% of the lifter failures are the NON-MDS lifter........ there was an issue in 15 where MDS lifters where failing due to needle bearings(hence FCA"s "FIX" call all new lifters Hellcat lifters"...marketing it's wonderful thing. )
the failures are due to a combo of issues ,most of the early failures can be linked back to bad valve springs(inconstant valve spring pressures) some too weak to hold the lifter against the Cam, which allowed the lifter to bounce, some too strong which drove the lifter into the lobe.....once FCA realized what was going on spring manufacture was changed, and we all know that it didn't stop the issue...but it cut back the under/over 100Kmile claims by due to lifter failure by 45%

Oddly 09-11 failure rate was 1 in 38k units it went to 1 in 12k between 2012 and 2015, now it's back to 1 in 38k ..it is a problem but GM rate with their D.O.D system is 1 in 15k

For those who don't know the lifters galley is divided in to 4 sections(WRONG)....the oil passage from front to back of the block has a "wall/divider" (WRONG) between the front and rear section on each bank. each MDS solenoid controls 4 of the 16 lifters. (WRONG)

HOW MDS ruins engines... "danger zone" is when the ECO(MDS) light comes off and the engine enters "low lift mode"(between 11MPH and 20 MPH) (WRONG, THERE IS NO "LOW LIFT MODE", EITHER NORMAL LIFT OR ZERO LIFT) before the oil pressure " fully pumps up" the MDS lifter. at this point the MDS solenoid is opening and closing depending on throttle demand under 20MPH it's proportional to Throttle demand ,3.79v /full throttle opens the solenoid fully (WRONG, THE SOLENOIDS ARE EITHER FULLY OPEN OR FULLY CLOSED) ...after 20 MPH the systems reacts to throttle request differently , it becomes more aggressive in it's opening rate per Throttle request based on RPMs above 1800/1900, it's different per model and engine. but it's roughly anything above 2.10V of throttle request ..(.side note it's the only good thing about those pedal commanders) (I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANY HEMI GO INTO MDS MODE AT 20MPH, ECO MODE DOES NOT ALWAYS INDICATE MDS IS ACTIVATED YOU HAVE TO WATCH ON A SCANNER TO SEE WHEN MDS IS ACTIVATED)

When in ECO(MDS activated) the only oil getting to the lifters is from the rocker gear(WRONG), , the MDS lifters bleed oil out the hole and it runs down and lubes the roller(WRONG)..., the NON MDS lifter's roller only gets trickle down oil from the push rod seat in the top of the lifter(WRONG)...basically what ever seeps past the diameter clearance....In essence till that Solenoid opens up it's being starved for oil...may only be nano seconds...but if that sticks....those 2 NON-MDS rollers in the section of block are going dry(WRONG, NO LIFTERS WILL EVER GO DRY AS A RESULT OF STUCK SOLENOID).

When in standard operating mode, the lifters are feed from both the rockers and the main oil galley. there are 4 passages that come off the main galley to feed the rocker and Valve gear , about half way up they break off in to a Y which is empties right under the MDS solenoid and feeds the lifters like an Old SB/RB/G2 hemi....or like almost any other V engine ever designed.


Now if you change to a NON-MDS cam, you should remove the Solenoids and replace them with the plugs.....the tips of the solenoid may not be much of an obstruction in the passage, but why have an obstruction when you don't have to.


Now the trick........If you are building a G3 from scratch..........Grove the lifter bore (comp cams has a nice lifter bore grooving tool for the .842 DIA lifters)


And for the record I completely disagree with the " the larger Needle bearings solved the issue comments........the 03-08 5.7s & 06-11 6.1's all used the same NON-MDS lifter and the increase in cam/lifter failures didn't start till spring manufacture was changed in 2012 .....needle bearing change happened in 2015 with the hellcat lifters and went across the board in 2016 and still have the same failure rate as pre- 2012


You are flat wrong about the way it oils the lifters. When operating in 4 cylinder mode there is FULL OIL PUMP PRESSURE to ALL the lifter bodys PERIOD. There is no wall dividing the oil galley front to rear (just double checked an early block and a 2011 Eagle block to be sure and you can see ALL THE WAY THROUGH with the plug on the outside removed). You can put an MDS engine in a non MDS application simply by leaving the solenoids in the holes and unplugged, they block high pressure oil and only allow a metered flow of non pressurized maybe 1 PSI, oil through the galley for oiling the lifter body, there is a bleed hole just below the head in the lifter aligning yolk area that allows the excess oil that would otherwise pressurize the lifters and activate the MDS, this keeps the lifter galley full of oil so the MDS can be activated without having to fill the entire galley, when MDS Is activated the bleed hole is closed by the solenoid and full pressure is supplied to the lifter body so you actually get MORE oil to the lifter in MDS mode. If you put the plastic NON MDS plug into the valley holes of an MDS engine it blocks the bleed hole (hence the 2 O rings on the plastic plug, one keeps oil inside the engine and one keeps if from escaping through the bleed hole into the lifter aligning yolk area) and feeds full pump pressure to the lifters activating the MDS lifters and your engine will run only on 4 cylinders. If you put the plastic plug in with only the upper ring to keep oil inside the engine you will have low oil pressure because so much oil will go out the bleed hole directly from the pump into the lifter yolk area. The lifters will never go "dry" because a solenoid sticks in any position, either it gets stuck in the off position and it gets low pressure oil or stuck in the activated position and gets high pressure. How many SBs have been "tubed" over the years completely blocking the oil to the lifters or severely limiting it with tiny bleed holes and they are just fine? The hydraulic lash adjusting part of the lifters does not ever get oil from the lifter at all, ALL the oil that pumps up the lifter is supplied from the rocker DOWN through the pushrod. I have seen lifter ticks because the rocker shaft is bleeding some oil under the hold down if the little sheetmetal gizmo that keeps the holder attached to the shaft gets pinched between the hold down and shaft. The wheel gets oil just like in a magnum or LA roller engine did, oil running down from the lifter body and splash from the crank at all times. More oil is not always a good thing, there are very thin rings on the Hemi piston to reduce friction, you don't want those getting flooded with too much oil.

I personally own 3 2011 5.7 trucks right now that I bought cheap with bad cam lifters, the 09-11 are by far the most common ones I have seen, it is not even close. Only twice have I seen spring failures on an eagle engine, one was my first 2011 (that makes 4 I have personally owned with bad cams) it had bad cam and broken springs at 300,000 miles, the other was a 2014 3/4 ton no MDS but cam and lifters is fine in that truck.

Fun story on the side here, I bought an 09 3/4 ton in phoenix with a bad cam and drove it home almost 2000 miles with the rocker flipped upside down to block the oil holes in the shaft, pushrod removed and injector unplugged, threw a 6.4 cam and lifters in when I got back here and it still runs great 4 years later, that was the first time I tried a 6.4 cam in a 5.7.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: GEN III Hemi parts info [Re: HotRodDave] #2944540
07/18/21 12:22 PM
07/18/21 12:22 PM
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Trumbauersville PA
ric3xrt Offline
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Ah Dave like so many Internet experts , you don't have a clue...................
1st Don't ever question me on anything to deal with the G3 Blocks, PERIOD ...I will prove you wrong 100% of the time, .there are only 2 ways to have an Eagle block drilled from End to end...It's either the only one EVER....Or your lying....I'm going with Lying

1st PHOTO is of the Blockage in the casting, see during the machine processes they drill from both ends and stop before reaching the "center point "of the block........and ALL OEM blocks are done this way The New DART block and BMP's Alum block will be machined all the way through ..
2nd PHOTO is of the "Blead hole....it's ABOVE the Galley and bleeds the oil trough the MDS solenoid cavity when the ENGINE goes in to ECO mode ..it's how the oil is drained from the galley.
3rd Photo is different view of the Oil blead hole.

The company I use to work for from 1989-2020 did all the Endurance testing on the pre production G3s, the the 1st run of 6.1s , and 6.4 SRTs, we received the 8th, 11th 21st and 30th Hellcat 6.2engine produced for pre install assembly inspection. from 95-08 worked closely with DCX engineers doing independent Conformation DYNO work for any and ALL engine programs....Even a few Maclaren F1 and FIA programs.


Very few People have an understanding of what and How DCX (and yes the VVT system was designed by DCX...NOT FCA) intended the ECO(MDS) system to grow when they demanded the G3 designed team it incorporate it in to the initial 03 HEMI.
The VVT cam system was shelved in the beginning because the Programmers couldn't guaranty that the system wouldn't cause issues. in the low lift portion of the VVT operation, the 06-08 MDS system is on or off, no ramp up no low lift situations, that's why the VVT cams have different durations for NON-MDS lobes and MDS Lobes.....it's only a few degrees but it's just enough to take the "load" off the cam and lifters.

one of the pre test we did was a NON-MDS cam in a MDS system engine, it wiped the cam in 2 hours of testing .the VVT system and MDS.

Also if you look closely in 2nd Photo , to the left of the photo you can see the whole MDS cavity , at the bottom you can see the hole from the "Y" passage at the bottom of the cavity






MDS and Lifter gally A.jpgMDS and Lifter gally B.jpgMDS and Lifter gally C.jpg
Last edited by ric3xrt; 07/18/21 12:26 PM.

Truth has no agenda, but those with an agenda make their own truth.
Some of us are so open minded they only see their View



Re: GEN III Hemi parts info [Re: ric3xrt] #2944542
07/18/21 12:26 PM
07/18/21 12:26 PM
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Trumbauersville PA
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And for giggles and Craps here's the section of block placed back where it should be.

MDS and Lifter gally D - Copy.jpg

Truth has no agenda, but those with an agenda make their own truth.
Some of us are so open minded they only see their View



Re: GEN III Hemi parts info [Re: ric3xrt] #2951674
08/08/21 02:01 PM
08/08/21 02:01 PM
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ric3xrt, as I do my best to follow the engineering information in this thread and not always succeeding, I am trying to find a conclusion as to why we are seeing SOME early cam/lifter failures in the Gen3's. With all your experience and information, if you had to name one reason what would it be please? Strictly MDS? Thanks and my apologies to the o/p for staying off track. Larry


Facts are stubborn things.






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