318 build
#2919217
05/06/21 09:28 AM
05/06/21 09:28 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487 Florida
scratchnfotraction
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well here I go again.
looking in the stash of engine parts I have I noticed almost all of the early to late 80s #302 heads are very poor castings with lots of core shift and bad looking port openings. some better than others with not so rectangle openings and casting slag all over, bowls look bad with seems mid way from core shifting when cast.
the couple #714 heads are from 90-91 engines and would be the last of the pre-mag heads produced when magnum came out 92-93
the #714 casting are better looking untouched than any of the #302 I have on hand. nice bowls not much slag, better looking machine work nice even/matching size on port openings ect..
so bust them down and off to machine shop. new OEM 360 valves and bare #714 casting heads in hand. 2 weeks later I pick them up and do they look good so far.
I had them back cut the 1.88-1.60 valves the unshroud the head around the valves a little, with 3 angle on intake and 5 angles on exhaust. now to do a little clean up in the bowls and blend the machine cuts into the bowls with a gasket match to intake and headers.
cleaning up the Holley Street dominator as it works really well and has small port/runners and will add the 650DP to it.
having the block tanked-bore .060-cam bearings-installed
new OEM roller lifters/PR/rockes new set comp 901-16 springs
going with a Hughes roller cam but have not decided one which one yet.
if my math is correct this will put me at 328 CI and only 12 CI shy of 340 CI and big valves with small ports/runners should have good velocity filling the cyls.
I am looking at a SER0813ALN-14
smooth idle high vacuum short dur@.050 high valve lift wide LSA 114*
will be swapping in a 833OD turning 3.23/26 tire while I am at it
oh and I cant forget to mention the HIGHLY CONTRVERSAL installing the pistons backward changing pin offset/rod angle..... yep I have done it many times.
any cam suggestions?
yes typo, sorry should be a #4 not #3 SER 0814ALN-14
Last edited by scratchnfotraction; 05/07/21 08:49 AM.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#2919326
05/06/21 12:53 PM
05/06/21 12:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
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I can't find that number for the cam, are you looking at the SER0814ALN-10 ?
What are your goals with this thing? Sounds like your going after a very low RPM torq motor.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: 318 build
[Re: HotRodDave]
#2919605
05/07/21 08:52 AM
05/07/21 08:52 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487 Florida
scratchnfotraction
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you are correct Dave, low rpm torque to strong mid range 4800 5500 rpm.
after talking it over, if the heads max flow/lift is 450ish then no point in more lift than needed. so maybe a short dur and a 430/450 lift on a 114LSA.
I remember way back I use a napa brand cam with 429/444 lift in a teen I think it was a 112* or 114* they called it a MPG cam or a stock 73-340 cam?
I will look into some more cams in the 430/450 lift range.
how will a flat tappet cam vs roller cam be with the same specs? will a smaller spec roller get the same results as a bigger flat tappet???
seems I used a mopar purple shaft with the 450/455 lift range but was flat tap
numbers..why does it have to be numbers? they make my head hurt.
they say " 5 out of 4 people struggle with math "
Last edited by scratchnfotraction; 05/07/21 10:10 AM.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#2919722
05/07/21 05:27 PM
05/07/21 05:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823 Central Florida
larrymopar360
Stud Muffin
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Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823
Central Florida
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Scratchn’s: Here are a couple pics 2 start
Very nice castings in bowl area
Had them do a throat cut and unshroud valve
Now just a light touch up on cut lines to blend the bowl Gasket matching ports next
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: Twostick]
#2919924
05/08/21 10:27 AM
05/08/21 10:27 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,061 Atlanta, GA
mgoblue9798
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Mar 2010
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Atlanta, GA
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Actually there is a good reason to run more lift than your heads max out at.
If you put in a .450 cam, you get max flow for the millisecond the valve stops and starts to close.
If you went with say a .500 cam you get max flow from the time the valve hits .450, goes to .500 and back to .450.
Somebody like Dewayne can perform the sorcery and witchcraft required to put the duration, LSA, lobe profiles etc where it can make the most of your cylinder heads and put the torque curve where your application needs it.
Kevin
Agreed. As long as flow doesn't fall off at .500 then run a modern profile fast rate of lift cam to keep the valve open in the "sweet spot" as long as possible for a given duration.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#2919960
05/08/21 12:05 PM
05/08/21 12:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,480 Candler,NC / Myrtle Beach, SC
JDMopar
master
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master
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Candler,NC / Myrtle Beach, SC
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Hey Scratch! I'm in the process of building a 273 for my 65 Barracuda, and will be using a set of 302 heads. Was it much of a big deal to step up the valve sizes to 1.88 - 1.60's? I'm not sure if the 273 needs that or not, but I'm open to it if it will help airflow and not hurt the velocity. It's gonna be .030 over with NORS 8.5 pistons, a D4B Edelbrock intake, MP electronic ignition. I'm using a 318 crank and bought new Scat rods cheaper than I could get the old ones redone! I'm leaning towards a Lunati retrofit hydraulic roller with 447 lift. There's another Lunati hydr roller that is slightly hotter, but I need to see what my builder says before I throw the money down. I'll be using Dougs headers in the Barracuda. I had my 302 heads pressure checked to see if they were cracked, and they aren't. Those things are bad to crack between the valves
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Re: 318 build
[Re: JDMopar]
#2920648
05/10/21 09:04 AM
05/10/21 09:04 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487 Florida
scratchnfotraction
OP
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OP
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Hey Scratch! I'm in the process of building a 273 for my 65 Barracuda, and will be using a set of 302 heads. Was it much of a big deal to step up the valve sizes to 1.88 - 1.60's? I'm not sure if the 273 needs that or not, but I'm open to it if it will help airflow and not hurt the velocity. It's gonna be .030 over with NORS 8.5 pistons, a D4B Edelbrock intake, MP electronic ignition. I'm using a 318 crank and bought new Scat rods cheaper than I could get the old ones redone! I'm leaning towards a Lunati retrofit hydraulic roller with 447 lift. There's another Lunati hydr roller that is slightly hotter, but I need to see what my builder says before I throw the money down. I'll be using Dougs headers in the Barracuda. I had my 302 heads pressure checked to see if they were cracked, and they aren't. Those things are bad to crack between the valves I have read & IIRC on a 273 and #302 heads the 1.78 valve is better as the 1.88 is shrouded and needs notches on the block cyl bores to clear. or was that a 2.02 valve? but going bigger on the exhaust side from 1.50 to 1.60 helps it a lot. then just open/clean up bowl area, back cut valves ect.. or have them fully ported 1.78/60 how well do the #302 castings look in the bowls/port openings? last couple I had are crappy castings but my 91 #714 are pretty clean from the get go as for as casting flaws go. very little clean up and bowls are shape nicely/roundish with no big casting lines in there.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: mgoblue9798]
#2920649
05/10/21 09:08 AM
05/10/21 09:08 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487 Florida
scratchnfotraction
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How much did you have cut off the heads? just enough to insure a flat surface.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: Twostick]
#2920655
05/10/21 09:21 AM
05/10/21 09:21 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487 Florida
scratchnfotraction
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Actually there is a good reason to run more lift than your heads max out at.
If you put in a .450 cam, you get max flow for the millisecond the valve stops and starts to close.
If you went with say a .500 cam you get max flow from the time the valve hits .450, goes to .500 and back to .450.
Somebody like Dewayne can perform the sorcery and witchcraft required to put the duration, LSA, lobe profiles etc where it can make the most of your cylinder heads and put the torque curve where your application needs it.
Kevin
this is why I am not just gorilla fisted hawging them out as I have in the past. I don't want to kill any flow or reshape the bowls/runners/ports very much and not get the chamber ccs mis matched. who is this Dewayne and how do you go about getting them done? what kind of budget is needed for him to fully port them?
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Re: 318 build
[Re: Twostick]
#2920699
05/10/21 11:05 AM
05/10/21 11:05 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,627 in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,627
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Actually there is a good reason to run more lift than your heads max out at.
If you put in a .450 cam, you get max flow for the millisecond the valve stops and starts to close.
If you went with say a .500 cam you get max flow from the time the valve hits .450, goes to .500 and back to .450.
Somebody like Dewayne can perform the sorcery and witchcraft required to put the duration, LSA, lobe profiles etc where it can make the most of your cylinder heads and put the torque curve where your application needs it.
Kevin
This is what I thought too, but an experienced head porter told me it isn't the case. He said in almost all cases once the port hits it's max flow any additional lift can cause the flow to be turbulent or stall.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon! 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#2920755
05/10/21 01:09 PM
05/10/21 01:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
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Actually there is a good reason to run more lift than your heads max out at.
If you put in a .450 cam, you get max flow for the millisecond the valve stops and starts to close.
If you went with say a .500 cam you get max flow from the time the valve hits .450, goes to .500 and back to .450.
Somebody like Dewayne can perform the sorcery and witchcraft required to put the duration, LSA, lobe profiles etc where it can make the most of your cylinder heads and put the torque curve where your application needs it.
Kevin
This is what I thought too, but an experienced head porter told me it isn't the case. He said in almost all cases once the port hits it's max flow any additional lift can cause the flow to be turbulent or stall. It really depends on the heads, once you reach max flow there is no point opening them more, however as it was pointed out they will be open longer and the could be some benefit in higher RPM ranges but you could do the same thing with a cam that just holds the valve open instead of opening it more. Some heads will just quit flowing more if you open the valve more and not have an issue, others will actually go into turbulance and an even lower amount of flow so you could (or could not) make less power.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: 318 build
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#2920756
05/10/21 01:14 PM
05/10/21 01:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Hey Scratch! I'm in the process of building a 273 for my 65 Barracuda, and will be using a set of 302 heads. Was it much of a big deal to step up the valve sizes to 1.88 - 1.60's? I'm not sure if the 273 needs that or not, but I'm open to it if it will help airflow and not hurt the velocity. It's gonna be .030 over with NORS 8.5 pistons, a D4B Edelbrock intake, MP electronic ignition. I'm using a 318 crank and bought new Scat rods cheaper than I could get the old ones redone! I'm leaning towards a Lunati retrofit hydraulic roller with 447 lift. There's another Lunati hydr roller that is slightly hotter, but I need to see what my builder says before I throw the money down. I'll be using Dougs headers in the Barracuda. I had my 302 heads pressure checked to see if they were cracked, and they aren't. Those things are bad to crack between the valves I have read & IIRC on a 273 and #302 heads the 1.78 valve is better as the 1.88 is shrouded and needs notches on the block cyl bores to clear. or was that a 2.02 valve? but going bigger on the exhaust side from 1.50 to 1.60 helps it a lot. then just open/clean up bowl area, back cut valves ect.. or have them fully ported 1.78/60 how well do the #302 castings look in the bowls/port openings? last couple I had are crappy castings but my 91 #714 are pretty clean from the get go as for as casting flaws go. very little clean up and bowls are shape nicely/roundish with no big casting lines in there. The 1.88 1.60 valve is only .050 closer to the cylinder wall than a 1.78 1.5 valve, if done properly this is what I would run on a 273. I would not run the 302/714 head though, I would run the 920 head from a 67 273/318, more flow and smaller chambers that better match the 273 bore. With a 302/714 head you have some chamber that does not sit right over the piston.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: 318 build
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#2921086
05/11/21 09:57 AM
05/11/21 09:57 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,627 in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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in a cattle trailer down by th...
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For the most part those 114 LSA cams are going to idle pretty well with good vacuum.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon! 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#2921107
05/11/21 10:56 AM
05/11/21 10:56 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487 Florida
scratchnfotraction
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For the most part those 114 LSA cams are going to idle pretty well with good vacuum. that's what I want but I also need it to move a #4000 truck around as a daily driver in traffic. haul trash/boat and do some highway miles mostly 50-80 mph I always shot for a steady 60MPH = 1 mile a minute travel time. MPGs wont hurt anything. things on the to choose from list. I would like to make use of this stuff so it is not sitting on the shelf collecting dust. Intake /carb combo??? Holley 650cfm vacuum 2ndary spredbore List# for a 85 truck 360 4v q-jet replacement carb. NOS/NIB Military surplus. only mod I have add is a QF adjustable Vacuum pod on it. or a Edelbrock 1905 q-jet for a 85 truck with a Holley STREET Dominator intake. or Holley 650DP on a Edelbrock LD4B ( I do have the Edelbrock RPM air-gap but will save it for the 360 headed 318 and later rebuild.) transmissions on hand and ready to go in. 727 CRT-VB TF-II shift kit recommend mods from CRT to go with VB. 833OD hydro bell trying to procure a B-body 833 4 speed and not use OD 93-gas 2x NV4500 5 speed (really nice with 3.21-3.23 gearing in my truck but no speed shifting/racing it but it hauls the weight no troubles) truck has e-body 8 3/4 axle on top of leaf with a rear shackle flip. my left side says 650DP-LD4B 833 4 speed 3.91 gear/26" tire but my right side says 650spredbore street dom 833OD or 727auto 3.23/26" tire I am keeping in mind I am retiring and want to slow down and enjoy the ride. I just need it to be a peppy #4000 truck and keep up in traffic.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#2921359
05/11/21 08:29 PM
05/11/21 08:29 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,627 in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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in a cattle trailer down by th...
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If it were mine I would use the NV4500 with the 3.91 gear and a vacuum secondary carb. Any of those cams would work and I would probably use the 222 @ .050 cam with the 3.91 gear or the 214 cam with a 3.23 gear. I would not recommend the DP carb in a truck that heavy. I had a 650 DP carb on my W200 with a 4.10 gear and 31" tire and it didn't work out to well. I ended up converting it to a VS, much better now.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon! 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#2921518
05/12/21 09:17 AM
05/12/21 09:17 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487 Florida
scratchnfotraction
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If it were mine I would use the NV4500 with the 3.91 gear and a vacuum secondary carb. Any of those cams would work and I would probably use the 222 @ .050 cam with the 3.91 gear or the 214 cam with a 3.23 gear. I would not recommend the DP carb in a truck that heavy. I had a 650 DP carb on my W200 with a 4.10 gear and 31" tire and it didn't work out to well. I ended up converting it to a VS, much better now. food for thought. that NV4500 did give mpgs in my truck with a 235/75/15 tire 3.21 gear about the same as 29x9.50x15 3-55 gear. I would have to drop to 4th with 3.23 on a good up hill grade but 3.55 would walk up it in 5th while accelerating and gaining speed, idle through some thick sand beds and never spin a tire. I really did like that part of the NV4500 but never run my 3.91sg behind it. I can see it fitting the bill with the correct tire size.... when I removed it for the 727auto I could not get in the sand what so ever with the 3.55 locker it would just spin down fast unlike the granny gear 5 speed. I could spin it up with the granny gear and it would dig ruts and move right along let off throttle and the tires would pop right up on top of the sand and idle on. what I did not like was trying to shift it fast. shift like butter but a might slow for racing it around on the street. about the best thing was the off the line hole shot with it and once in 3rd standing on the throttle it would haul the mail. on the interstate it would fly open road and would do 80-90 all the way all day. this morning on the way to work I was thinking about a B-body a833 4 speed 3.23 or 3.91 and the pro/cons of it over the NV4500. after all a lot of Mopar legends were HP- B-body cars @ #4000 or more or a C-body with 4 speed?? 6pac 440 a833 3.91sg 4.10sg 4.11sg 5.13sg 14" poly glass tires #4000 + B-body I always thought that as weird with the 14" wheels 26" tall tire and that low of gearing. but remember how they would smoke the tires through 3 gears like nothing and fly on the topend in a 1/4 mile. so my thinking is keep all those stock set ups in mind setting it up this time for a daily drive. only sorta fast. so I come up with something close and was going for that same cam choice. 222@.050 a833 4 speed 3.23- 255/60/15 26" tall on 10" rim it will see more traffic than off-road so this is more street truck friendly for crazing and can always pop in those 3.91s to rev things up some. I do know for sure how well the 650DP worked on the 360headed 318/727/3.23 with the 5.2 whiplash roller cam. I was taxing it pretty hard. and now I am here building another one. but the 650 spredbore Holley is a vac carb and I have added the QFT adjustable vac pod to it and is ready to go. best thing is all the stock 85 truck PTK linkage will fit with that spredbore Holley & Street dom intake if I stay 727auto
Last edited by scratchnfotraction; 05/12/21 09:19 AM.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#2921843
05/12/21 08:22 PM
05/12/21 08:22 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,627 in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,627
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Well, I was thinking since you want to daily it and do light hauling the NV4500 might be a better choice. The DP with an automatic and the PTK would work alright. I like to just walk my truck up the mountain without down shifting it. So I can have it in 4th at 35 MPH and go WOT with no problem now, with the DP it just bogs and with the NP 435 basically being a 3 speed the gear spread is too wide. But then again, you really don't have any hills in FL.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon! 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#2922224
05/13/21 08:11 PM
05/13/21 08:11 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,627 in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,627
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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I am at 1000' and I live in a holler. I sent you a PM.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon! 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: redraptor]
#2922863
05/15/21 03:53 PM
05/15/21 03:53 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,627 in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,627
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Oooo! Shiny things! But no valve reliefs. Might be a problem with those .500 lift cams.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon! 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#2923386
05/17/21 09:01 AM
05/17/21 09:01 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487 Florida
scratchnfotraction
OP
I Live Here
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OP
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I am at 1000' and I live in a holler. I sent you a PM. sadly disappointed this morning driving by the sign and actually reading it.. I stand corrected it only 240 feet above sea level. not 1200. that must be why the 318 could get up it rather fast. LOL! yea I was watching the bigger valves piston clearance. I am not against a little less lift as long as it is more than a 2v roller cam. LOL!
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Re: 318 build
[Re: mgoblue9798]
#2923398
05/17/21 09:36 AM
05/17/21 09:36 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487 Florida
scratchnfotraction
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What piston do you have there? What is the compression height? silvolite 3.970 (AT +.060") flat top 9.0-1CR ringlands 5/64"-5/64"-3/16" comp distance 1.745" pin diameter .9842" if the math is correct it should be 328 cubic inch -/+
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Re: 318 build
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#2923964
05/18/21 01:03 PM
05/18/21 01:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
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I Live Here
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Probably won't be too hard to Zero deck those suckers and run a .028 head gasket.
The lift won't be the problem, gonna need to keep the duration down though so short duration with fast lift.
One thing I like to do when running a high compression motor is to chuck the exhaust valves in a drill press and polish the heads, start off with about 600 grit sandpaper and work in steps down to 2000 for a mirror polish, this keeps them from absorbing as much heat and helps keep detonation at bay. Remember the ex valve is one the hottest place in the chamber (as long as you get rid of the pointy thing between the valves).
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: 318 build
[Re: mgoblue9798]
#2924501
05/19/21 04:44 PM
05/19/21 04:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
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I Live Here
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$200 for squaring and I usually take .030 ish off most blocks, combine it with piston comp height and gasket thickness to get a real tight quench.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: 318 build
[Re: mgoblue9798]
#2924929
05/20/21 04:32 PM
05/20/21 04:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
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If I remember right it was about .030 off the heads, any more and you start taking away valve seat but that may have been the 2.02 heads I did for my hot rod dakota stroker...?
Yes you are correct I think on the mag block it took around .035 or something for zero deck (after squaring) and the LA blocks were a little taller but I don't remember how much. Also part of me wants to say the decks got shorter for the last year or two of the LA also, maybe when they quit using shim steel head gaskets and started using composites. I used to have a ton of this info in my head and even shared stuff here like block weights, heights, how far in the hole pistons were, head weights... someone better with the google could probably find it in my old posts, I have forgotten way too much small block stuff since I been messing with mostly hemis now.
The 5.9 magnum in my wifes daily driver 15 passenger van is leaking out of pretty much everything butt the head gasket so I may need to dig up all my old magnum stuff and build another superduper mpg 318 for that thing. Then I could use the 5.9 for a superduper MPG project in my 93 dakota, so many ideas and so little time.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: 318 build
[Re: Mr PotatoHead]
#2938412
06/30/21 04:08 PM
06/30/21 04:08 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487 Florida
scratchnfotraction
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
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Can you post intake pics? sure. I will take some pics tonight. I will be running a Holley Street Dominator intake with a Holley 650cfm vac spredbore carb ( q-jet replacement for 85 d150 I got NOS/NIB from a military surplus sale.) I added a QFT adjustable vac pod to it. I have found this is well worth the 40bux for dialing in a vac 2ndary carb over the R&R pod spring. 2nd choice is my LD4B intake with the 650cfm double pumper. I will run the 4 speed with this combo. I also have a eddy performer RPM-airgap intake with a 750cfm dp that I modified to use an 850cfm throttle plate on. gasket match main body to the 850 throttle plate for 1 3/8" ventures 1 3/4" throttle blades. squared up air bleeds/jets converted it to 4 corner idle lots of velocity and throttle response with this mod and it is 40 yrs old and works good as a new high $ shiny carb. moparlarry360 is helping me with the pic posting and will come when he has the spare time to post them... THANKS Larry!!
Last edited by scratchnfotraction; 07/01/21 08:40 AM.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#2938664
07/01/21 10:49 AM
07/01/21 10:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823 Central Florida
larrymopar360
Stud Muffin
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Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823
Central Florida
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I wish superformance still made rear main seals for 318/360 because I’ve heard they were best but I don’t think they do.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: redraptor]
#2941136
07/08/21 10:47 AM
07/08/21 10:47 AM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823 Central Florida
larrymopar360
Stud Muffin
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Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823
Central Florida
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Progress. Crank in & torqued. Pistons in & Rods torqued. Oil galley plugs in & intermediate bushimg in.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: larrymopar360]
#2941225
07/08/21 03:06 PM
07/08/21 03:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
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Did you get the pistons zero decked?
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: 318 build
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#2941930
07/10/21 10:22 PM
07/10/21 10:22 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 7,831 east side of Ohio
basketcase
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 7,831
east side of Ohio
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[quote=scratchnfotraction]thanks Larry, yes you would be correct on the rod & main bearings.
I am sentimental about the intake as I got it from Larry Green AKA 340shorty a few days before he passed away. since it is a Holley intake only fitting it have a Holley carb.
Larry was one of the good ones, miss that guy.
Dave
1981 Dodge D150 360 auto
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Re: 318 build
[Re: redraptor]
#2951348
08/07/21 11:50 AM
08/07/21 11:50 AM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823 Central Florida
larrymopar360
Stud Muffin
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Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823
Central Florida
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It's important to stay hydrated while engine building! Yes! Hydrate until a good buzz comes on and then pause for at least 10 minutes I'm waiting on call back from engine builder :("Next week" has been a month from two of them but I'm being patient. I'm pretty sure of one I want to go with but I guess he's real busy so I'm giving him time. He seems like a really good guy and straight forward
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: larrymopar360]
#2989645
11/27/21 05:34 PM
11/27/21 05:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823 Central Florida
larrymopar360
Stud Muffin
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Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823
Central Florida
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Scratchn' making progress with some NOS goodies
Last edited by larrymopar360; 11/27/21 07:19 PM. Reason: Pic posting error
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: larrymopar360]
#2989694
11/27/21 08:52 PM
11/27/21 08:52 PM
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Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 9,426 Super Spudsville
Mr PotatoHead
Half Baked
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Half Baked
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 9,426
Super Spudsville
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Might look where the oil hole is on those lifters are, a big bunch of clackers got superseded with the oil hole in a diff place so they would not drain when sitting.
STOP POTATO HATE!
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Re: 318 build
[Re: redraptor]
#2989824
11/28/21 12:44 PM
11/28/21 12:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823 Central Florida
larrymopar360
Stud Muffin
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Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823
Central Florida
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Yes Mike's magic shed contains lots of Mopar goodies!!! I accidentally left out NOS valve cover gaskets too. I like the old style breather he's using too.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: Mr PotatoHead]
#2990088
11/29/21 09:56 AM
11/29/21 09:56 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487 Florida
scratchnfotraction
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
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Might look where the oil hole is on those lifters are, a big bunch of clackers got superseded with the oil hole in a diff place so they would not drain when sitting. IIRC-that is when they change the early lifter from a non-oil through lifter/solid PRs to a oil through lifter/solid PRs and later on to a oil-through lifter hollow 5/16" PRs in the later 90-91 pre-magnum LA roller cam engines as they gear up for the 92-93 magnum engine debuted. you have to WATCH for non oil through lifters going into a magnum engine that oil rockers via PRs I have also found in a lot of the 90-91 pre-magnum LA roller 5.2 engines that they oiled through the heads/shafts as well as up through the lifters/PRs. IMHO this is why a lot of them had VC leaks as it is a lot of oil in the VC area at operating speeds & that the PCV valve suck a lot of oil as well. (why I use a cheap oil/air separator on mine) on the police engines they have grooved #2 & #4 cam bearings for full time oiling to rockers and they tend to have a lot of VC leaks also. I install restrictors in the block reducing the feed to rocker to 1/2 the oem block size. along with all the oiling mods I do. all of my lifters are the same part # & yr, they are sealed NOS-1989 OEM replacements- oil through lifter/solid 5/16" PRs. I index them when installed hole facing cam per FSM book. installed dry/not pumped up and all PRs where at zero lash/no preload per cyls. = I could pre load bottom out each lifter by hand with no loose rockers. then primed oil pump/engine - Lucus sae30 break in oil with 65 psi with a 1/2" drill. they all pump up and primed till no air bleeding out of lifters. rotating engine to oil both sides all 16 rocker oiling. all on a HughesEngines roller cam 192*/203* .500/.513 lift 114* LSA I should be good to go.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#2994679
12/12/21 05:36 PM
12/12/21 05:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 570 USA
Hooligan
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 570
USA
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well here I go again.
looking in the stash of engine parts I have I noticed almost all of the early to late 80s #302 heads are very poor castings with lots of core shift and bad looking port openings. some better than others with not so rectangle openings and casting slag all over, bowls look bad with seems mid way from core shifting when cast.
the couple #714 heads are from 90-91 engines and would be the last of the pre-mag heads produced when magnum came out 92-93
the #714 casting are better looking untouched than any of the #302 I have on hand. nice bowls not much slag, better looking machine work nice even/matching size on port openings ect..
so bust them down and off to machine shop. new OEM 360 valves and bare #714 casting heads in hand. 2 weeks later I pick them up and do they look good so far.
I had them back cut the 1.88-1.60 valves the unshroud the head around the valves a little, with 3 angle on intake and 5 angles on exhaust. now to do a little clean up in the bowls and blend the machine cuts into the bowls with a gasket match to intake and headers.
cleaning up the Holley Street dominator as it works really well and has small port/runners and will add the 650DP to it.
having the block tanked-bore .060-cam bearings-installed
new OEM roller lifters/PR/rockes new set comp 901-16 springs
going with a Hughes roller cam but have not decided one which one yet.
if my math is correct this will put me at 328 CI and only 12 CI shy of 340 CI and big valves with small ports/runners should have good velocity filling the cyls.
I am looking at a SER0813ALN-14
smooth idle high vacuum short dur@.050 high valve lift wide LSA 114*
will be swapping in a 833OD turning 3.23/26 tire while I am at it
oh and I cant forget to mention the HIGHLY CONTRVERSAL installing the pistons backward changing pin offset/rod angle..... yep I have done it many times.
any cam suggestions?
yes typo, sorry should be a #4 not #3 SER 0814ALN-14
Hey Scratch! Looking good! Is that the Chet Herbert cam that I gave you?
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Re: 318 build
[Re: Hooligan]
#2996073
12/17/21 10:56 AM
12/17/21 10:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 570 USA
Hooligan
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 570
USA
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Whoops! I just took closer look at your cam, and noticed that it is a hydraulic roller. Cool!
Where did you get the machine work done? You probably stated somewhere in one of your replies, and I'll find it later.
Hmmm? Where did everybody go? I fear that I killed the 5 page long post, you had going there. (sigh)
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Re: 318 build
[Re: Hooligan]
#2996074
12/17/21 10:58 AM
12/17/21 10:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 570 USA
Hooligan
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 570
USA
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Dang... it's a 3 page long post.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: redraptor]
#3002119
01/04/22 08:49 PM
01/04/22 08:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,537 Freeport IL USA
poorboy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,537
Freeport IL USA
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So my info is pretty sketchy, so take it for whatever it may be worth. The 435 is the granny gear heavy duty truck trans. Most work pickup trucks that came with a 4 speed, got them in the early days. The mid 60s cars got the A833 4 speed up until around the mid 70s when the OD craze started because of fuel mileage. The a 833 was a tough bird before Mopar added the heavy duty version to use behind the 440s and the 426 Hemi. In the mid 70s, the 833 got an aluminum case instead of the cast iron version, and the OD trans got 3rd gear replaced with an OD gear (0.87 I believe) and the shift lever was flipped over so what used to be 4th was now 3rd, and visa-versa. The aluminum case could have problems under heavy abuse because the aluminum case would allow the main shaft and the secondary shafts to Waller out the holes in the case. I also believe Mopar offered a couple different 1st and 2ns gears as well to accommodate the lower powered vehicles. i believe the 1st (and maybe part of the 2nd) year production Dakota got the aluminum case OD 833 but then they got the AX-15 5 speed. The AX-15 has the on top of the trans shift handle with internal sliding rods supported in the aluminum case that shifts the gears. The trans end of an AX-15 shift handle looks a lot like the bottom of the handle of the 435 shifter, but it fits in slots on the internal sliding the shift rods. Those sliding internal shift rods do not make power shifting very easy, they move way too slow to make us old motorheads happy (at least with the ax-15 in my coupe, but its also got nearly 200K miles on it). I suspect the other lighter duty 5 speed (A535?) with the unique shifter was a short lived version of the AX -15 that had the 5 speed shifter outside of the trans body. It may have preceded the AX-15 or may have come after it. I've heard about it, but don't have any data on it. Dodge also had a few 5 speeds that had the bell attached, those bells were engine specific, and too new for me to be concerned about. The NV 3500 and the NV 4500 are suppose to be the heavy duty 5 speeds put into the full sized trucks. I believe both of those also have the shift with the internal sliding shafts. The main difference between the hydro bell and the mechanical bell is the hydro bell has provisions for mounting the hydraulic slave cylinder the replace the mechanical linkage on the older stuff. You can attach the slave cylinder to the mechanical bell, but it will take some engineering, just like you can convert the hydro bell back to a mechanical unit, but you will have to do some modifications because there is no provision to mount the ball stud for the cross bar. Understand that Mopar didn't add any trans bolt pattern that didn't fit the current available transmissions. As the available transmission choices changed over the years, the trans bolt pattern on the bell kept pace, maybe only allowing an older trans pattern for a year or two. Of course, that was when Chrysler still was owned by Chrysler. I also suspect that as Chrysler was bought and sold a few times, the parts interchange may have became more consistent, the parts for a Dakota also fit a full size truck, and probably a jeep, but it could have really gotten screwed up too, because the "new" company wanted to use "their" parts instead of the last guy's parts. Gene
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Re: 318 build
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#3002751
01/06/22 10:34 PM
01/06/22 10:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,537 Freeport IL USA
poorboy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,537
Freeport IL USA
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The difference between the 833 and the OD 833 is the aluminum case, the switched lever, and 3rd gear being replaced with the OD gear. The OD trans also probably has a larger diameter front bearing retainer. the smaller retainer bolts on, but I think there was a seal drain added to the larger diameter bearing retainer that the smaller retainer doesn't fully cover. Flipping the 3/4 gear lever on the OD trans will still shift, but when you put it in 3rd gear, you will have OD and 4th will be 1-1 gear. The flipped lever only changes which gear is engaged with the shifter in a certain position. The OD bells were all machined for the larger diameter retainer, a filler ring was available to fill the gap when a different trans was used. Back in the day, many bells were machined for the larger retainer, and a few placed offered the filler spacer, but it is probably not available these days. I believe the OD 833 was a 76-89 item in the Valarie and later years (after 84?) light duty trucks, after then it was either an automatic or the 5 speed. The 833 (std or OD) trans to bell bolt pattern was the same, but the retainer bearing housing was a different size.
The second bolt pattern on your bells may very well be for a 3 speed manual trans, not a different 4 speed. I think the 3 speed was still the base manual trans then.
Who knows for sure what Chrysler was doing in those days, probably using up what ever may have been laying in a warehouse someplace. 77/78/79 was the near bankruptcy time, and they were not back on their feet until after about 84-85. Lots of stuff went on during those years just to get a product into a customer's hands. Parts could have been substituted mid day and reverted back to the normal supply by the next day, or the next week, or when ever the extra found on the shelf stock ran out. The Omni/Horizon in 78/79 save Chrysler. The K car in 82/83 and the Minivan in 84/85 revived them, everything between was just survival.
I was a dealer tech in 86-87, you had to live through it to fully understand. I suspect things were not much different every time Chrysler has changed hands since the bankruptcy years. That is probably why accurate info on the modern stuff is so sketchy. Gene
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Re: 318 build
[Re: Mr PotatoHead]
#3084309
10/08/22 01:31 PM
10/08/22 01:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823 Central Florida
larrymopar360
Stud Muffin
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Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823
Central Florida
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I've been talking with him on phone. Mike is a great guy and retired back in May after 33 years, and got himself a Softail only to have someone run a red light and hit him. He suffered some pretty bad leg injuries and has been through two surgeries (so far). I'll post some pics for him soon and hopefully he'll be back on here soon. Engine is ready to fire btw.
If you are a buddy of Mike's pm me for his number if you want to call him.
Larry
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: moparx]
#3084355
10/08/22 03:37 PM
10/08/22 03:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823 Central Florida
larrymopar360
Stud Muffin
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Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823
Central Florida
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oh no ! thoughts and prayers his way for a speedy recovery ! Yes for sure. If you know him you know what a great guy he is. Always willing to help and just an overall good guy. To say he had a compound fracture in one spot is understatement. I can post some pics. Would it be going too far to post a pic of compound fracture?
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: moparx]
#3084518
10/09/22 11:58 AM
10/09/22 11:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823 Central Florida
larrymopar360
Stud Muffin
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Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823
Central Florida
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He's going through rough time so get a hold of him if you can. I'm sure he'd appreciate it. He's a tough guy and will come through it, but his son, grandson, and daughter-in-law just got rear ended while stopped at a railroad crossing to add to it. Fortunately just shook up. Here's the not so gruesome pic of his leg and a couple others.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#3086419
10/16/22 04:44 AM
10/16/22 04:44 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,627 in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,627
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Dang Mike, that is a rough time. Best wishes for a full and speedy recovery.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon! 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: redraptor]
#3086501
10/16/22 02:18 PM
10/16/22 02:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823 Central Florida
larrymopar360
Stud Muffin
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Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823
Central Florida
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Dang, that's rough! I think I have him saved in my contacts. He really enjoyed talking with you! Lifted his spirits.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: larrymopar360]
#3086502
10/16/22 02:21 PM
10/16/22 02:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823 Central Florida
larrymopar360
Stud Muffin
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Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823
Central Florida
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So good to see you back posting Mike! You and your wealth of knowledge have been missed! You keep hanging in there! Better days ahead!
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: 318 build
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#3086578
10/16/22 05:13 PM
10/16/22 05:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823 Central Florida
larrymopar360
Stud Muffin
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Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,823
Central Florida
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Yes I know everyday is a good day above ground.
I got surgery again on Monday. I HOPE it's the last one.
Hope to have this wound vac removed and wound stitched up.
That will let me go home.
Home is where i need to be. My wife is battling bone cancer since 2016 and the toxic meds she deals with keeps her sick tired hurting.
She has been my rock for 40yrs this March. I retired ealy to be home with her more and take care of her just being together.
Not working out like we had planned for retirement but we are together till the end.
I am the luckiest man in the world just having her in my life.
I know it's been so rough Mike and home is definitely where you need to be. That's where you will heal the best and you can help each other the most.
Facts are stubborn things.
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