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EFI upgrade for LA motor? #2907411
04/06/21 07:14 PM
04/06/21 07:14 PM
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Nampa, ID
MadMatt Offline OP
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I'm thinking of upgrading to EFI for better driveability and I wanted to get suggestions and hear some real world experiences. I have a 360 cube LA motor, built from a 90's MP short block, with ported 308 heads, a Comp Cam hydraulic lifter cam, Eddy Performer intake, a Demon 725 cfm carb, 3:55 gears, and a TKO 600 5-speed, in a 1970 Dart. I'm looking at EFI because the current setup is really "cold-blooded" though it idles pretty well once it warms up.

Does anyone have a recommendation for a throttle body EFI system that is easy to install? I already have an in-tank EFI capable fuel pump and regulator. Do I need to switch to a single-plane manifold, or perhaps a carb spacer on the dual plane? Any and all input is appreciated!


Some see the glass as half empty, some see the glass as half full. I just drink straight out of the bottle.
Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor? [Re: MadMatt] #2907424
04/06/21 07:48 PM
04/06/21 07:48 PM
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80fbody Offline
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I have a Sniper on a small block chevy that is great. Just gotta be real diligent with all your wiring, fuel, grounds and charging system. No hackage or you'll be endlessly frustrated. My '55 starts in zero degree weather with a turn of the key like a new Kia. No touching the throttle or staying there while it warms up. I run a performer rpm intake with a phenolic carb spacer. It helps the IAC as well as keep heat out of the unit. I'm also running the Hyperspark ignition so it's all controlled by the computer.

Definitely stay with Holley for your first system. They have way, way more support than any other brand right now. Don't buy a Fitech cause its a few $$ cheaper. Other one is Edelbrock and if they have a small block mopar package it may be worth a shot as their kits are individual injectors with a new intake. That is the best style but expensive from Holley to go that route.


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Last edited by 80fbody; 04/06/21 07:49 PM.
Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor? [Re: 80fbody] #2907427
04/06/21 07:52 PM
04/06/21 07:52 PM
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Another vote for a Sniper. If you already have a fuel system it's a no brainer. Get the distributor and ignition to control timing as well.


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Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor? [Re: MadMatt] #2907433
04/06/21 08:03 PM
04/06/21 08:03 PM
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DaveRS23 Offline
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I believe that our own ThumperDart can put you together a carb that would rival the retro-fit throttle body systems in driveability and for a lot less money and hassle.

For that matter, if your cam is mild and idle not too lumpy, the new Street Demons that look similar to the old Thermoquads are very good carbs right out of the box for mild engines. And for $300 or so, are a real bargain to boot. Lots of Youtube videos on them.


Master, again and still
Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor? [Re: 80fbody] #2907440
04/06/21 08:27 PM
04/06/21 08:27 PM
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Quote
Just gotta be real diligent with all your wiring, fuel, grounds and charging system. No hackage or you'll be endlessly frustrated.


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Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor? [Re: 80fbody] #2907447
04/06/21 08:36 PM
04/06/21 08:36 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 730
Nampa, ID
MadMatt Offline OP
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Originally Posted by 80fbody
I have a Sniper on a small block chevy that is great. Just gotta be real diligent with all your wiring, fuel, grounds and charging system. No hackage or you'll be endlessly frustrated. My '55 starts in zero degree weather with a turn of the key like a new Kia. No touching the throttle or staying there while it warms up. I run a performer rpm intake with a phenolic carb spacer. It helps the IAC as well as keep heat out of the unit. I'm also running the Hyperspark ignition so it's all controlled by the computer.

Definitely stay with Holley for your first system. They have way, way more support than any other brand right now. Don't buy a Fitech cause its a few $$ cheaper. Other one is Edelbrock and if they have a small block mopar package it may be worth a shot as their kits are individual injectors with a new intake. That is the best style but expensive from Holley to go that route.


https://imgur.com/joTipGf



Thanks for the input. Are you running an open spacer? How tall is it?


Some see the glass as half empty, some see the glass as half full. I just drink straight out of the bottle.
Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor? [Re: DaveRS23] #2907449
04/06/21 08:43 PM
04/06/21 08:43 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
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Nampa, ID
MadMatt Offline OP
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Originally Posted by DaveRS23
I believe that our own ThumperDart can put you together a carb that would rival the retro-fit throttle body systems in driveability and for a lot less money and hassle.

For that matter, if your cam is mild and idle not too lumpy, the new Street Demons that look similar to the old Thermoquads are very good carbs right out of the box for mild engines. And for $300 or so, are a real bargain to boot. Lots of Youtube videos on them.


I didn't put this in my original post but I drive the car spring/summer/fall here in Idaho, so temperatures from about 45 degrees to 100 degrees, and I drive in elevations ranging from 800-5200 feet above sea level. No disrespect intended, but do you honestly think any carb can handle those conditions as well as an EFI system with it's multitude of sensors?


Some see the glass as half empty, some see the glass as half full. I just drink straight out of the bottle.
Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor? [Re: MadMatt] #2907452
04/06/21 08:46 PM
04/06/21 08:46 PM
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The Holley Sniper is probably the best deal for you. There are various models and different price points. I'd probably go with a Stealth version but they are a little bit more expensive. The Stealth has the same basic size and shape as a Holley double pumper so your existing throttle linkage should hook up okay. I highly recommend that you download the instructions from the Holley website before you buy anything. There are a lot of details that you have to work thru with the wiring and fuel plumbing so do your homework up front rather than later.

I've installed a bunch of Snipers over the past several years. Most of them work great right out of the box but sometimes they do have a problem so make sure you buy from Summit and keep all of your packaging and documentation so you can return it easily if there is an issue.

Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor? [Re: MadMatt] #2907455
04/06/21 08:49 PM
04/06/21 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MadMatt
Originally Posted by DaveRS23
I believe that our own ThumperDart can put you together a carb that would rival the retro-fit throttle body systems in driveability and for a lot less money and hassle.

For that matter, if your cam is mild and idle not too lumpy, the new Street Demons that look similar to the old Thermoquads are very good carbs right out of the box for mild engines. And for $300 or so, are a real bargain to boot. Lots of Youtube videos on them.


I didn't put this in my original post but I drive the car spring/summer/fall here in Idaho, so temperatures from about 45 degrees to 100 degrees, and I drive in elevations ranging from 800-5200 feet above sea level. No disrespect intended, but do you honestly think any carb can handle those conditions as well as an EFI system with it's multitude of sensors?


A Sniper system will work a lot better than a carb once the Sniper is properly dialed in. It does take some computer skill to dial a Sniper in so you need to think about that. Ideally you need a Windows laptop to really understand and work with a Sniper. You'll also need the matching Hyperspark distributor to control the ignition timing. The Sniper has a built in data logging system that keeps track of what the engine is doing. A data logger is a great tool to have once you get used to it and learn how to use it.

Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor? [Re: AndyF] #2907471
04/06/21 09:10 PM
04/06/21 09:10 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 730
Nampa, ID
MadMatt Offline OP
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Originally Posted by AndyF
Originally Posted by MadMatt
Originally Posted by DaveRS23
I believe that our own ThumperDart can put you together a carb that would rival the retro-fit throttle body systems in driveability and for a lot less money and hassle.

For that matter, if your cam is mild and idle not too lumpy, the new Street Demons that look similar to the old Thermoquads are very good carbs right out of the box for mild engines. And for $300 or so, are a real bargain to boot. Lots of Youtube videos on them.


I didn't put this in my original post but I drive the car spring/summer/fall here in Idaho, so temperatures from about 45 degrees to 100 degrees, and I drive in elevations ranging from 800-5200 feet above sea level. No disrespect intended, but do you honestly think any carb can handle those conditions as well as an EFI system with it's multitude of sensors?


A Sniper system will work a lot better than a carb once the Sniper is properly dialed in. It does take some computer skill to dial a Sniper in so you need to think about that. Ideally you need a Windows laptop to really understand and work with a Sniper. You'll also need the matching Hyperspark distributor to control the ignition timing. The Sniper has a built in data logging system that keeps track of what the engine is doing. A data logger is a great tool to have once you get used to it and learn how to use it.


Thanks for both your replies. I am planning to get the Hyperspark distributor to go with it, and fortunately I have a Window's laptop. I have basic computer skills, but luckily my son is a computer science major and loves cars, so I should be good to go there. I was thinking about going with the basic system because it has the built in regulator and saves a few bucks. I do have an adjustable Aeromotive regulator already installed and was thinking I could clean up the engine compartment a bit by using the built-in. I'm not too concerned on the linkage as I've changed it half a dozen times as I've gone from AVS to Holley to Demon and from AT to the TKO-600. Do you feel strongly that there are other advantages to the 4150-type unit?

Also, do you know if the stock Mopar alternator will supply sufficient amps? I think my unit is rated at 55-60 amps, and all my lights are LED except the headlights and front turn signals. I have a 35 watt stereo, heater and OEM A/C with a Sanden compressor. I'm currently running the MP labeled MSD 6A box with the MP replacement distributor that was made by Mallory.

Last edited by MadMatt; 04/06/21 09:12 PM.

Some see the glass as half empty, some see the glass as half full. I just drink straight out of the bottle.
Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor? [Re: MadMatt] #2907485
04/06/21 09:33 PM
04/06/21 09:33 PM
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80fbody Offline
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I’m running a 2” open phenolic spacer as I have the room. Any is better than none and phenolic helps protect the ecu from all the heat transfer.

Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor? [Re: MadMatt] #2907492
04/06/21 09:40 PM
04/06/21 09:40 PM
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80fbody Offline
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You can use the built in regulator but its not the most reliable. I’m running a corvette style filter/regulator from Speedway that has -6an fittings. This allows you to put the regulator back on the frame rail and deadhead to the motor. I do have a reusable pre-filter before this regulator as well.

Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor? [Re: MadMatt] #2907510
04/06/21 10:43 PM
04/06/21 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by MadMatt


Thanks for both your replies. I am planning to get the Hyperspark distributor to go with it, and fortunately I have a Window's laptop. I have basic computer skills, but luckily my son is a computer science major and loves cars, so I should be good to go there. I was thinking about going with the basic system because it has the built in regulator and saves a few bucks. I do have an adjustable Aeromotive regulator already installed and was thinking I could clean up the engine compartment a bit by using the built-in. I'm not too concerned on the linkage as I've changed it half a dozen times as I've gone from AVS to Holley to Demon and from AT to the TKO-600. Do you feel strongly that there are other advantages to the 4150-type unit?

Also, do you know if the stock Mopar alternator will supply sufficient amps? I think my unit is rated at 55-60 amps, and all my lights are LED except the headlights and front turn signals. I have a 35 watt stereo, heater and OEM A/C with a Sanden compressor. I'm currently running the MP labeled MSD 6A box with the MP replacement distributor that was made by Mallory.


EFI really prefers a modern alternator which is one reason why I designed a swap kit to put the Denso 60 amp unit on a big block or small block. You can try your existing alternator but if you run into issues with electrical noise then you'll need to upgrade to a modern alternator.

The cleanest fuel system is to use a EFI module with the pump and regulator inside the tank. Holley sells a EFI module that drops into a '70 Dart tank. https://www.holley.com/products/fue...umps/muscle_car_efi_modules/parts/12-319
If you don't want to replace the parts you already have then you can use your existing pump and regulator or you can buy the Sniper with a built in regulator. The built in regulators are a known issue so if you go that way buy a spare and make sure you have the correct hex key in your tool box to change the regulator. It takes a weird metric hex key and the screws are locktited into the throttle body so it can be a pain to deal with.

The Hyperspark distributor will work with your existing MSD ignition box and coil so you don't need to change anything there.

Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor? [Re: AndyF] #2907529
04/07/21 12:19 AM
04/07/21 12:19 AM
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Nampa, ID
MadMatt Offline OP
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Originally Posted by AndyF
Originally Posted by MadMatt


Thanks for both your replies. I am planning to get the Hyperspark distributor to go with it, and fortunately I have a Window's laptop. I have basic computer skills, but luckily my son is a computer science major and loves cars, so I should be good to go there. I was thinking about going with the basic system because it has the built in regulator and saves a few bucks. I do have an adjustable Aeromotive regulator already installed and was thinking I could clean up the engine compartment a bit by using the built-in. I'm not too concerned on the linkage as I've changed it half a dozen times as I've gone from AVS to Holley to Demon and from AT to the TKO-600. Do you feel strongly that there are other advantages to the 4150-type unit?

Also, do you know if the stock Mopar alternator will supply sufficient amps? I think my unit is rated at 55-60 amps, and all my lights are LED except the headlights and front turn signals. I have a 35 watt stereo, heater and OEM A/C with a Sanden compressor. I'm currently running the MP labeled MSD 6A box with the MP replacement distributor that was made by Mallory.


EFI really prefers a modern alternator which is one reason why I designed a swap kit to put the Denso 60 amp unit on a big block or small block. You can try your existing alternator but if you run into issues with electrical noise then you'll need to upgrade to a modern alternator.

The cleanest fuel system is to use a EFI module with the pump and regulator inside the tank. Holley sells a EFI module that drops into a '70 Dart tank. https://www.holley.com/products/fue...umps/muscle_car_efi_modules/parts/12-319
If you don't want to replace the parts you already have then you can use your existing pump and regulator or you can buy the Sniper with a built in regulator. The built in regulators are a known issue so if you go that way buy a spare and make sure you have the correct hex key in your tool box to change the regulator. It takes a weird metric hex key and the screws are locktited into the throttle body so it can be a pain to deal with.

The Hyperspark distributor will work with your existing MSD ignition box and coil so you don't need to change anything there.


I think I'll just go ahead and upgrade the alternator. I actually already have your bracket kit, I just never got around to installing it. wrench Based on everything you said, I think I should go with the 4150 style Sniper and use the external regulator and my existing pump. I did the in-tank probably 7 or 8 years ago and can't remember the brand right this moment, but it was a good one in a brand new tank, and it has been trouble free since, though I've had it regulated down to feed the carb.

IMG-0008.JPG

Some see the glass as half empty, some see the glass as half full. I just drink straight out of the bottle.
Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor? [Re: MadMatt] #2907533
04/07/21 01:12 AM
04/07/21 01:12 AM
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Yah, no reason to change out the parts if they are working. The new stuff is more advanced and less expensive but since you already have parts might as well use them. You can probably clean up the plumbing a little bit by moving the regulator. I'd put it on the return side of the system rather than on the pressure side but it should work either way.

Be super careful when you install the Sniper wiring. You have to keep all Sniper wires away from the high voltage plug and coil wires. The Sniper will go crazy if a spark plug wire lays on top of a Sniper wire. You need at least a few inches of air space between Sniper wires and any spark plug wires. You'll also need high quality resistance wires and resistor plugs. I use Firecore 50 plug wires on all of my installs.

Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor? [Re: MadMatt] #2907574
04/07/21 06:50 AM
04/07/21 06:50 AM
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The Super Sniper has a few more bells and whistles. I'm sure there's a comparison online. Like I believe you can add sensors on the Super like fuel pressure to have that on the display. The regular Sniper doesn't have additional inputs available. That's probably the only missing item that bugs me. Might be worth comparing the two just to make sure.

Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor? [Re: 80fbody] #2907591
04/07/21 08:35 AM
04/07/21 08:35 AM
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I put on a Fitech system several years ago and its been great.
Is that now out of favor?

Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor? [Re: MadMatt] #2907599
04/07/21 08:58 AM
04/07/21 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by MadMatt
Originally Posted by DaveRS23
I believe that our own ThumperDart can put you together a carb that would rival the retro-fit throttle body systems in driveability and for a lot less money and hassle.

For that matter, if your cam is mild and idle not too lumpy, the new Street Demons that look similar to the old Thermoquads are very good carbs right out of the box for mild engines. And for $300 or so, are a real bargain to boot. Lots of Youtube videos on them.


I didn't put this in my original post but I drive the car spring/summer/fall here in Idaho, so temperatures from about 45 degrees to 100 degrees, and I drive in elevations ranging from 800-5200 feet above sea level. No disrespect intended, but do you honestly think any carb can handle those conditions as well as an EFI system with it's multitude of sensors?


The temp swing is no big deal. Properly tuned, carbs have been handling it forever. The ThumperDart tuned Dominator on my Hemi does it just fine and that is with no choke. Others will have to weigh in on the current situation with elevations. It has been 50 years since I have been in a car going over the continental divide. But back then, the Fury had a /6 and did just fine.

There are a few advantages to retrofit fuel injection. But only a few. And only the user can determine if those few advantages are worth the extra cost and complexity. Most potential EFI purchasers are exaggerating the advantages of EFI because they are comparing the EFI to an un-tuned or faulty carb. Factory designed and installed fuel injection on modern cars is an entirely different animal and none of us would want to go back to the good old days of carbureted engines. But wet manifold throttle body retrofit EFI is just about as obsolete as carbs are. They are just more expensive, complicated, and with a steeper learning curve for most users.

I will say it again, a properly tuned carburetor can deliver as nearly perfect a driving experience as most retrofit EFI systems can. But I will add this; if the additional cost, complexity, and learning/tuning curve are not a problem, then there is no reason not to go with EFI. Other than the issue of future obsolescence and difficulty in getting certain proprietary replacement parts.


Master, again and still
Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor? [Re: DaveRS23] #2907600
04/07/21 09:04 AM
04/07/21 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveRS23
Other than the issue of future obsolescence and difficulty in getting certain proprietary replacement parts.


Years ago, decades actually, I put Holley's Projection 2D on my Diplomat. Good luck getting those proprietary parts for it.

Something to consider actually. I can get part for my 51's B&B carb easier.

Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor? [Re: Sniper] #2907640
04/07/21 10:54 AM
04/07/21 10:54 AM
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I am assuming there are headers on the engine. Those with EFI experience, are your typical headers sealed well enough for adding an O2 sensor? Or are we also talking header upgrade to a premium header with O2 bungs already installed?


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