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Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Ray S] #2896195
03/05/21 07:21 PM
03/05/21 07:21 PM
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OK, I got to talk to the builder John at CRT about a 518/46RH
https://www.coperacingtrans.com/?product=crt-518-hd-1-transmission
When I asked, he did not think that the small block TC should be a problem - he said he's "built many of them" for heavy towing applications and can supply the BB adapter, core, TC, etc as a full kit.
He also recommended not to use pressure switches, but only toggles on the dash for control.

So, at least ~$5k...
$2,495.00 full build
$500 core
$800 TC + $400 core https://www.coperacingtrans.com/?product=diesel-performance-converter-1300-tow
$800 adapter

? $ shipping

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Ray S] #2896216
03/05/21 08:20 PM
03/05/21 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Ray S
Originally Posted by Guitar Jones
The converter also protrudes from the face of the bellhousing about an inch or so when fully seated vs the 1/2" the converter is recessed into the face of the bellhousing on gas versions and non lockup diesel versions. It's not because the bell is cut back, it's because the converter is thicker to accommodate larger, heavier duty components.
You could cut the bell off a 46 or 47 and use an Ultra Bell for a 727 to B/RB pattern or an adapter for the 46 gas engine trans but you are still stuck with the smaller and narrower converter.


I was just buying other stuff and saw
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-to-...-Ram-Cummins-Diesel-12v-24v/233911930079
So, the Cummins has its own adapter to handle the deeper 47* TC?
Could THAT be then adapted to the 413/440, ie stack them? The starter may or may not have clearance of course.

The Cummins doesn't have a bellhousing pattern, just a bolt on adapter to fit a multitude of applications. Those 8 bolt holes inside that adapter are what bolts to the block. There are two different adapters for the Dodge/Ram application. One for the non lockup/Getrag (up to '93) and one for the lockup/NV4500 and beyond transmissions. The later version is about 1.125 deeper and has a different starter mounting as well as how the starter is clocked.
I don't know why John would rather have switches instead of pressure switches because that is a PITA to keep up with. I will say you can't just use those little switches like PATC sells, at least I wouldn't. I used two adjustable Hobbs switches, one low and one high with two relays wired so while the low pressure switch closes it doesn't activate the relay until the high pressure switch activates the high switch relay. The high switch relay is then latched to the low switch relay so it stays locked until the low pressure switch is released. Kind of confusing I know and I would have to dig up the schematic again myself to redo it but it locks up at about 46-47 and unlocks at about 42-44 MPH. Otherwise it will hunt between lock and unlock at the pressure switch setting.
I ran the whole deal through the O/D circuit in the PCM so I wouldn't get lockup without it being in O/D and used a third relay in that circuit so I wouldn't burn the driver out in the PCM. Works like factory, really.


"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"


'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon!
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Guitar Jones] #2896232
03/05/21 08:52 PM
03/05/21 08:52 PM
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I know you want to keep the 413 but in reality you could buy a rusted out P pumped 12 valve truck for $5k or less and swap the engine and trans and be money ahead even with a trans overhaul and good converter.


"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"


'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon!
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Guitar Jones] #2896336
03/06/21 12:59 AM
03/06/21 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Guitar Jones
I know you want to keep the 413 but in reality you could buy a rusted out P pumped 12 valve truck for $5k or less and swap the engine and trans and be money ahead even with a trans overhaul and good converter.


It's not that I have an affectionate attachment - it just runs great and I really don't want to remove the front end to cherry-pick it all out.
My vain hope was to jack it up and do a trans R&R, which I've done, and (besides the shaft shortening) is a few hours.

I also did got a reply from Randy (mrrandyj):
"In my opinion you should use a Gear Vendors overdrive behind your 727. You can get a towing 12" torque converter that will not slip much going down the road. If you really must have a lock-up torque converter, you can find a 1978 big block 727 case and convert it to lock-up using a small block lock-up 727 for the parts you need. That way you won't need any expensive adapters to get the transmission to bolt to the engine. With a lot of the adapters you cannot use the larger size torque converter, it will not fit. If it was mine I would use your existing transmission, buy a good non lock-up torque converter, and install a Gear Vendors.
Randy"
and my response was:
"Thank you Randy,
If I find a good used GV unit I'll consider it, otherwise $3-5k for any of these solutions will never be worth it in gas savings..."

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Guitar Jones] #2896340
03/06/21 01:06 AM
03/06/21 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Guitar Jones

I don't know why John would rather have switches instead of pressure switches because that is a PITA to keep up with. I will say you can't just use those little switches like PATC sells, at least I wouldn't. I used two adjustable Hobbs switches, one low and one high with two relays wired so while the low pressure switch closes it doesn't activate the relay until the high pressure switch activates the high switch relay. The high switch relay is then latched to the low switch relay so it stays locked until the low pressure switch is released. Kind of confusing I know and I would have to dig up the schematic again myself to redo it but it locks up at about 46-47 and unlocks at about 42-44 MPH. Otherwise it will hunt between lock and unlock at the pressure switch setting.
I ran the whole deal through the O/D circuit in the PCM so I wouldn't get lockup without it being in O/D and used a third relay in that circuit so I wouldn't burn the driver out in the PCM. Works like factory, really.


Sounds like a better idea, John might have had the PATC style simple switches in mind for the comment.
My 97 RAM locks in 3rd and OD and the feel is noticeable. Since I installed 3.21 gear set in the diff climbing the local 6% grade in 3rd lockup is perfect.

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Guitar Jones] #2898106
03/11/21 11:18 AM
03/11/21 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Guitar Jones

That is as close as you are going to get with a 46RH. I honestly don't know how that would hold up in his application though. The billet cover and lockup clutch take up room in the converter that the turbine, stator and impeller occupy so all those components have to be smaller, which equals weaker. It's one of the reasons high horsepower automatic drag cars use GM transmissions, the bell housing is deeper.
You could of course have someone build a special one off converter (expensive) and space the trans back but then the crossmember needs to be moved and the driveshaft shortened. Maybe not a big deal in Ray's case but is in others. I had to do that when I converted my '92 diesel to a lockup. Everything had to move rearward 1.250".


This thread
https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?topic=14273.0
details one crazy drama of a mechanic's DIY trans mod.
TLDR; he used an Ultrabell at the end, in front of a non-locking 46RH and manual OD switch. But, because of the thicker bell he had to use a smaller TC.

Actually sounds reasonable, and high-quality OD clutches are called for.

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Ray S] #2898596
03/12/21 10:07 PM
03/12/21 10:07 PM
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Just to add more to the mix, I've learned that there are 2.74 ratio first gear parts out there now (there are raging debates as to whether there were such OEM options for the 727).
With a modern low stall towing converter (non locking) it would make less heat and lower RPMs at cruise.
In addition, I need to check the tag on the Dana 70HD to see if it is one with a 5/8" pinion offset. If so, I might be able to put 3.73 gears in it. With those gears and my shorter 19.5 tires, first would be very similar to OEM and much lower highway rpm. Right now it is over 3400 at 70.

I should also put my old B3500's 4.1 gears in the parts section - free plus shipping.

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Ray S] #2898600
03/12/21 10:18 PM
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Oh, and another reason not to use a GV or 46RH is that I would need to add a $400 pinion E-brake, as my 727 has the tailshaft drum brake (I'd rebuilt recently).

68471012_10206394347374029_6015225702343770112_n.jpg
Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Ray S] #2898708
03/13/21 12:01 PM
03/13/21 12:01 PM
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I case someone is interested, I found this list application list.

'90-'93 A518 transmission assemblies

TRANSMISSION ASSEMBLY, Complete w/Overdrive Assy., 4-Speed Automatic, A518

5300 8101 1 B2,3-D1 A518, w/5.2L Eng. w/o Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, Up To 1-14-1991
5300 7782 1 B2,3-D1 A518, w/5.2L Eng. w/o Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, After 1-14-1991
5300 8148 1 B,D A518, w/5.2L Eng. w/Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, 1992
5211 8184 1 B,D A518, w/5.2L Eng. w/Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, 1993, Up To 10-1-1992
5211 8732 1 B,D A518, w/5.2L Eng. w/Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, After 10-1-1992
5300 8142 1 N 1 A518, w/5.2L Eng. w/Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, 1992
5211 8730 1 N 1 A518, w/5.2L Eng. w/Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, After 10-1-1992
5300 8143 1 N 5 A518, w/5.2L Eng. w/Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, 1992
5211 7685 1 N 5 A518, w/5.2L Eng. w/Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, 1993, Up To 10-1-1992
5211 8731 1 N 5 A518, w/5.2L Eng. w/Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, After 10-1-1992
4505 154 1 D 5,6,8 A518, w/3.9L,5.2L Eng. w/o Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, Up To 2-12-1991 Warren Built
4505 154 1 D 5,6,8 Up To 2-8-91 Toluca Built
5300 7783 1 D 5,6,8 A518, w/3.9L,5.2L Eng. w/o Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, After 2-12-1991 Warren Built
5300 7783 1 D 5,6,8 After 2-8-1991 Toluca Built
5211 8231 1 D 5 A518, w/3.9L Eng. w/Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, 1992
5211 8187 1 D 5 A518, w/3.9L Eng. w/Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, 1993, Up To 10-1-1992
5211 8734 1 D 5 A518, w/3.9L Eng. w/Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, After 10-1-1992
5300 8147 1 D 5,6,8 A518, w/5.2L Eng. w/Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, 1992
5211 8185 1 D 5,6,8 A518, w/5.2L Eng. w/Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, 1993, Up To 10-1-1992
5211 8735 1 D 5,6,8 A518, w/5.2L Eng. w/Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, After 10-1-1992
5300 8149 1 D 5,6,7,8 A518, w/5.2L Eng. w/o Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, 1992
5300 8102 1 B2,3-T4 A518, w/5.9L Eng. w/o Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, Up To 1-2-1991
5300 7784 1 B2,3-T4 A518, w/5.9L Eng. w/o Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, After 1-2-1991
5211 8230 1 B 2,3 A518, w/5.9L Eng. w/o Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, 1992
5211 8721 1 B 2,3 A518, w/5.9L Eng. w/Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, 1993, Up To 10-1-1992
5211 8736 1 B 2,3 A518, w/5.9L Eng. w/Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, After 10-1-1992
5300 8102 1 D 1,2,3,4 A518, w/5.9L Eng. w/o Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, Up To 1-2-1991
5300 7784 1 D 1,2,3,4 A518, w/5.9L Eng. w/o Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, After 1-2-1991
5211 8230 1 D 1,2,3,4 A518, w/5.9L Eng. w/o Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, 1992
5211 8721 1 D 1,2,3,4 A518, w/5.9L Eng. w/Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, 1993, Up To 10-1-1992
5211 8736 1 D 1,2,3,4 A518, w/5.9L Eng. w/Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, After 10-1-1992
4505 156 1 D 5,6,7,8 A518, w/5.9L Eng. w/o Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, Up To 1-21-91 (Some Trans. May Be Stamped 4505154)
5300 7786 1 D 5,6,7,8 A518, w/5.9L Eng. w/o Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, After 1-21-91
5300 8152 1 D 5,6,7,8 A518, w/5.9L Eng. w/o Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, 1992
5211 8722 1 D 5,6,7,8 A518, w/5.9L Eng. w/Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, 1993, Up To 10-1-1992
5211 8739 1 D 5,6,7,8 A518, w/5.9L Eng. w/Electronic T/Converter Lock-Up, After 10-1-1992
5300 7779 1 D 2,3 A518, w/5.9L CUMMINS DIESEL Eng., w/o Lock-Up, 1991
5211 7524 1 D 2,3 A518, w/5.9L CUMMINS DIESEL Eng., w/o Lock-Up, 1992
5211 7689 1 D 2,3 A518, w/5.9L CUMMINS DIESEL Eng., w/o Lock-Up, 1993, Up To 10-1-1992
5211 8733 1 D 2,3 A518, w/5.9L CUMMINS DIESEL Eng., w/o Lock-Up, After 10-1-1992
5300 7780 1 D 6,7 A518, w/5.9L CUMMINS DIESEL Eng., w/o Lock-Up, 1991
5211 7525 1 D 6,7 A518, w/5.9L CUMMINS DIESEL Eng., w/o Lock-Up, 1992
5211 7694 1 D 6,7 A518, w/5.9L CUMMINS DIESEL Eng., w/o Lock-Up, 1993, Up To 10-1-1992
5211 8737 1 D 6,7 A518, w/5.9L CUMMINS DIESEL Eng., w/o Lock-Up, After 10-1-1992

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Ray S] #2901015
03/20/21 10:41 AM
03/20/21 10:41 AM
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
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Originally Posted by Ray S
Oh, and another reason not to use a GV or 46RH is that I would need to add a $400 pinion E-brake, as my 727 has the tailshaft drum brake (I'd rebuilt recently).


Gearvendors makes a divorced unit. If your motorhome has a hanger bearing, you could install the GV unit in place of it and only have to shorten one driveshaft.

Kevin

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Ray S] #2901077
03/20/21 02:00 PM
03/20/21 02:00 PM
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Rio Linda, CA
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Originally Posted by Ray S
Just to add more to the mix, I've learned that there are 2.74 ratio first gear parts out there now (there are raging debates as to whether there were such OEM options for the 727).


No debate, it's a myth.


The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: John_Kunkel] #2901157
03/20/21 06:53 PM
03/20/21 06:53 PM
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in a cattle trailer down by th...
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There are low gear sets for the 727 but none were OEM. The one set I saw used a 904 planetary and sun gear scabbed together with the 727 parts. Looked really cheesy to me. I don't know who made or sold it.


"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"


'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon!
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Guitar Jones] #2901578
03/22/21 12:28 PM
03/22/21 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Guitar Jones
There are low gear sets for the 727 but none were OEM. The one set I saw used a 904 planetary and sun gear scabbed together with the 727 parts. Looked really cheesy to me. I don't know who made or sold it.


I talked to http://www.aandatrans.com and they sell billet low gear sets, PN 22134H**** ~$600 to $900
http://www.jvxracing.com no longer sells the sets that are in their catalog...

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: John_Kunkel] #2901595
03/22/21 01:11 PM
03/22/21 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by John_Kunkel
Originally Posted by Ray S
Just to add more to the mix, I've learned that there are 2.74 ratio first gear parts out there now (there are raging debates as to whether there were such OEM options for the 727).


No debate, it's a myth.


Do we know what the "police and taxi" option trans is? Only upgraded planetaries?
The motorhome 727 came with upgraded planets.

Trans ID A01 B.jpg
Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Ray S] #2902383
03/24/21 01:46 PM
03/24/21 01:46 PM
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Rio Linda, CA
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Originally Posted by Ray S

The motorhome 727 came with upgraded planets.


"Upgraded" how? A BB motorhome, police or taxi trans is basically just a HD unit using the same 4-pinion planetary as any production trans, so that might be considered an "upgrade" from 3-pinion units.

The 383-2 unit circled above would have 3-pinion planetaries front and rear.


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Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: John_Kunkel] #2902437
03/24/21 04:47 PM
03/24/21 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by John_Kunkel
Originally Posted by Ray S

The motorhome 727 came with upgraded planets.


"Upgraded" how? A BB motorhome, police or taxi trans is basically just a HD unit using the same 4-pinion planetary as any production trans, so that might be considered an "upgrade" from 3-pinion units.

The 383-2 unit circled above would have 3-pinion planetaries front and rear.


Yes, "upgraded" meaning 4-pinions...
Which implies that the only difference in police or taxi units was the pinion count (?)

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Ray S] #2902665
03/25/21 12:32 PM
03/25/21 12:32 PM
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There are many differences between the standard and HD 727, not just the planetaries. The archives has a list of 727's with 4-pinion planetaries.

http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/auto/36.html


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Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: John_Kunkel] #2902740
03/25/21 04:00 PM
03/25/21 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by John_Kunkel
There are many differences between the standard and HD 727, not just the planetaries. The archives has a list of 727's with 4-pinion planetaries.

http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/auto/36.html


Thanks
I'd seen that you'd chimed in on this MH 727 thread as well
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2486701/re-motorhome-727.html

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Ray S] #2904951
04/01/21 03:13 PM
04/01/21 03:13 PM
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Ray I have done some checking and a 12" converter can be used if a midplate style adapter is used to mate the 518 to the big block. If you go with the ultrabell instead of adapter then you may be limited to the 11' as Guitar mentioned. Just a heads up.

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: mgoblue9798] #2908733
04/10/21 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by mgoblue9798
Ray I have done some checking and a 12" converter can be used if a midplate style adapter is used to mate the 518 to the big block. If you go with the ultrabell instead of adapter then you may be limited to the 11' as Guitar mentioned. Just a heads up.


Thanks - The Cope Racing build would have such a plate.

I'm still on the fence regarding the main options:
1. 1978+ locking TC 727 with lower 1st and diff ratio change.
2. Same 727 with GV and modern low stall TC
3. Well built 518

Another consideration is that the A727 has the P-brake on the tailhousing. Id have to weld on a pinion brake if I lost that...

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