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Head gaskets, pre-flattened copper wire ring #2897464
03/09/21 07:01 PM
03/09/21 07:01 PM
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Posts: 16,768
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline OP
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ZIPPY  Offline OP
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Yeah, I know... "use Cometic" and I did, but do I really need all that jazz for a NA street engine that goes to the track a few times a year? C'mon.

What about composite gaskets that have a pre-flattened copper wire fire ring.
The idea being, all the conformability and ease of installation of a plain old composite gasket, but with a copper fire ring instead of steel, so it won't damage your aluminum heads.
This sounds like a nice idea.

Is this strictly a Ford and Chevy thing or have they ever been available for Mopars?
I can't find anything which kind of leads me down the "negative" path. Alot of times we take what we can get.

https://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/sto...=&Nrpp=&No=&persistYmm=false

I know several builders here work on all brands, and can tell me something about them? (maybe they're not the best to begin with? No idea. But I like the concept)


Rich H.





Re: Head gaskets, pre-flattened copper wire ring [Re: ZIPPY] #2897473
03/09/21 07:22 PM
03/09/21 07:22 PM
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Great Neck,LI,new york
hemi-itis Offline
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Cometic is the best,don't cheap out now tsk wrench


HEMI-ITIS has no cure.
My condition is fully BLOWN!!
Re: Head gaskets, pre-flattened copper wire ring [Re: hemi-itis] #2897514
03/09/21 08:45 PM
03/09/21 08:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,768
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline OP
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I did, but would like a few options.


Rich H.





Re: Head gaskets, pre-flattened copper wire ring [Re: ZIPPY] #2897642
03/10/21 09:31 AM
03/10/21 09:31 AM
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usa
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lewtot184 Offline
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you'd be surprised at what you can get by with using the simple fel-pro 8519. all gaskets mark an aluminum head.

Re: Head gaskets, pre-flattened copper wire ring [Re: lewtot184] #2897651
03/10/21 10:00 AM
03/10/21 10:00 AM
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Lake Villa Il
INTMD8 Offline
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I used these on my twin turbo LT1. Decent but MLS is far superior. (I would never use the felpros again)


I ended up with some leakage (combustion gases not coolant) after a standing mile run at the 900hp level. Would not be an issue with MLS

Re: Head gaskets, pre-flattened copper wire ring [Re: INTMD8] #2897668
03/10/21 10:55 AM
03/10/21 10:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,768
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline OP
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Originally Posted by INTMD8
I used these on my twin turbo LT1. Decent but MLS is far superior. (I would never use the felpros again)


I ended up with some leakage (combustion gases not coolant) after a standing mile run at the 900hp level. Would not be an issue with MLS


That's impressive!

Did they chew up the head noticeably?


Rich H.





Re: Head gaskets, pre-flattened copper wire ring [Re: INTMD8] #2897669
03/10/21 10:56 AM
03/10/21 10:56 AM
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usa
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lewtot184 Offline
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a fel-pro 1039 is very reliable. used them in a 12.5:1 470 several times. avoid the 1009 like the plague.

Re: Head gaskets, pre-flattened copper wire ring [Re: lewtot184] #2897671
03/10/21 11:02 AM
03/10/21 11:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,768
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline OP
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Originally Posted by lewtot184
a fel-pro 1039 is very reliable. used them in a 12.5:1 470 several times. avoid the 1009 like the plague.


I do like those and have used them on my low deck, but they tend to eat aluminum heads.


Rich H.





Re: Head gaskets, pre-flattened copper wire ring [Re: ZIPPY] #2897682
03/10/21 11:37 AM
03/10/21 11:37 AM
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MI, Lapeer
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maximus Offline
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Have you ever used SCE copper gaskets? Use them on my motors, can be reused without problems. Have not had an issue yet, always sealed for me.

Re: Head gaskets, pre-flattened copper wire ring [Re: lewtot184] #2897722
03/10/21 01:03 PM
03/10/21 01:03 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,176
Apollo, PA.
B1MAXX Offline
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Originally Posted by lewtot184
you'd be surprised at what you can get by with using the simple fel-pro 8519. all gaskets mark an aluminum head.

I ran those on a 14 to 1 all aluminum engine of mine for a year or two, never had any issues, I wouldn't recommend it though. But for an aluminum head street engine .......perfect.

Re: Head gaskets, pre-flattened copper wire ring [Re: ZIPPY] #2897730
03/10/21 01:44 PM
03/10/21 01:44 PM
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Oregon
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AndyF Offline
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I tried all of the high performance head gaskets in my 514 dyno motor. Ended up deciding that Cometic was the only good choice since everything else, (including the pre-flattened wire) would damage the cylinder head. It was cheaper to just buy Cometic gaskets than it was to use the cheaper Fel Pro gaskets and surface the head each time. Besides, when you surface the heads multiple times you change the height and the chamber cc so things are moving around on you.

For a race engine that goes together and stays together for multiple seasons the Fel Pro stuff will work, but it wasn't a good choice for what I was doing.

Re: Head gaskets, pre-flattened copper wire ring [Re: ZIPPY] #2897736
03/10/21 01:52 PM
03/10/21 01:52 PM
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Oregon
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Originally Posted by ZIPPY
Originally Posted by lewtot184
a fel-pro 1039 is very reliable. used them in a 12.5:1 470 several times. avoid the 1009 like the plague.


I do like those and have used them on my low deck, but they tend to eat aluminum heads.


Fel Pro 1105 is probably what you are looking for. It is a "pro" head gasket for big bore race engines. It has the pre-flattened ring and it doesn't mark up the head too bad. But the bore size is big and it is super thick. I tried the 1105 gaskets on my dyno engine and they worked but I didn't like the big bore size or the 0.051 thickness so I went back to Cometic gaskets. The Cometic gasket can be ordered to fit which is really nice. The 1105 is a good gasket if you have a 4.500 mega block.

Re: Head gaskets, pre-flattened copper wire ring [Re: ZIPPY] #2897765
03/10/21 03:20 PM
03/10/21 03:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,293
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline
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Zippy -- your concern is overkill using Cometics... or anything that is MLS (multi-layer-steel).. and that it is.. for a NA engine that only sees occasional trach action... but that is your choice... spending the extra $$ or not. MLS requires very smooth surface head and block finishes that many, unfortunately, machine shops cannot perform unless they take the extra time AND check the final machined finishes with a profilometer... again, many shops will not do this.

The Fel-Pro design of the pre-flattened copper ring was purposely designed to greatly reduce any brinelling into aluminum castings, whereas, the previous designs with STEEL wire rings did brinell as a typical act. However, any brinelling that actually takes place offers a slightly better combustion seal... similar to o-ringing the head or block when using a plain flat copper head gasket..... and the Fel-Pro design eliminates that design by having the wire-ring as part of the gasket.

Also, the Fel-Pro wire-ring head gaskets have a stainless steel meta combustion armor that wraps around the wire ring... better than traditional tin-plate that is used on most non-wire-ring head gaskets.

The wire-ring design is designed to seal high CRs... just the same way as common diesel head gaskets are designed... with an internal wire ring. The Fel-Pro wire-ring head gaskets (sold exclusively under their Fel-Pro Performance name brand), is very well race-proven.. NASCAR, NHRA and all others.

I'm a former Fel-Pro applications engineer and was involved with the design and testing of those gaskets when they hit the market back in the 1980s. Yes, Mopar is also included. MLS head gaskets are very expensive... Fel-Pro also manufactures many, many MLS head gaskets for all applications, as well as applies a coating to help with non-desirable surface finishes. You shouldn't have any worries about using the Fel-Prp brand, as long as you choose the correct part number as cataloged (as any manufacturer would also state).


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: Head gaskets, pre-flattened copper wire ring [Re: Mopar Mitch] #2897871
03/10/21 07:46 PM
03/10/21 07:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,768
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline OP
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"However, any brinelling that actually takes place offers a slightly better combustion seal... similar to o-ringing the head or block when using a plain flat copper head gasket"

Thank you very much for that tip, I had no clue. up

" is pre flattened copper available for mopars?" was the question.

Sorry if I beat around the bush.

Of course pre-flattened steel (various) is available for most all makes, I've used them and seen them eat the cylinder heads slightly......
however pre flattened copper is not sold for Chrysler products, is it? (asking because I can't find it).

If pre flattened copper/composite was available for Mopars, I would try it.

I've already spent the money on cometic, installed them and fired the engine.
But I am not convinced I really require that technology for a street engine, and if there are any future teardowns I'd like something a little more user friendly.


Rich H.





Re: Head gaskets, pre-flattened copper wire ring [Re: ZIPPY] #2897886
03/10/21 08:19 PM
03/10/21 08:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,245
KATY TEXAS
csk Offline
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Originally Posted by ZIPPY
"However, any brinelling that actually takes place offers a slightly better combustion seal... similar to o-ringing the head or block when using a plain flat copper head gasket"

Thank you very much for that tip, I had no clue. up

" is pre flattened copper available for mopars?" was the question.

Sorry if I beat around the bush.

Of course pre-flattened steel (various) is available for most all makes, I've used them and seen them eat the cylinder heads slightly......
however pre flattened copper is not sold for Chrysler products, is it? (asking because I can't find it).

If pre flattened copper/composite was available for Mopars, I would try it.

I've already spent the money on cometic, installed them and fired the engine.
But I am not convinced I really require that technology for a street engine, and if there are any future teardowns I'd like something a little more user friendly.


The Cometic are reusable



1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 3.54gear A518 OD 4100lb,11.04@123 full street car trim
Re: Head gaskets, pre-flattened copper wire ring [Re: csk] #2898186
03/11/21 02:54 PM
03/11/21 02:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,768
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline OP
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ZIPPY  Offline OP
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I know they are, but I have weird luck and am kind of backward from the norm.

I have a past history of damaging gaskets most consider reuseable, to "screwed up beyond the point of re-useability" when I remove them.

I also have a past history of not damaging cheap non-reuseable gaskets that many consider to be garbage, and having the same
ones on for decades without any damage, even after removing the parts they are attached to repeatedly (cork valve cover gaskets,
certain intake gaskets, most carb gaskets, etc).

Oh well, it'd be nice to have another option, but I'm probably crazy for suggesting such a thing realcrazy laugh2


Rich H.





Re: Head gaskets, pre-flattened copper wire ring [Re: ZIPPY] #2898187
03/11/21 03:02 PM
03/11/21 03:02 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 241
Lake Villa Il
INTMD8 Offline
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Originally Posted by ZIPPY
Originally Posted by INTMD8
I used these on my twin turbo LT1. Decent but MLS is far superior. (I would never use the felpros again)


I ended up with some leakage (combustion gases not coolant) after a standing mile run at the 900hp level. Would not be an issue with MLS


That's impressive!

Did they chew up the head noticeably?


No there was no damage. I didn't even know there was a problem until the next time I tore it down for a rebuild. Still made the 1000 mile drive home.

Re: Head gaskets, pre-flattened copper wire ring [Re: INTMD8] #2898192
03/11/21 03:12 PM
03/11/21 03:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,768
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline OP
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ZIPPY  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by INTMD8
Originally Posted by ZIPPY
Originally Posted by INTMD8
I used these on my twin turbo LT1. Decent but MLS is far superior. (I would never use the felpros again)


I ended up with some leakage (combustion gases not coolant) after a standing mile run at the 900hp level. Would not be an issue with MLS


That's impressive!

Did they chew up the head noticeably?


No there was no damage. I didn't even know there was a problem until the next time I tore it down for a rebuild. Still made the 1000 mile drive home.


Good input. the pre-flattened copper ring seems like a nice idea for middle of the road applications (900hp ain't middle of the road).
Too bad there doesn't seem to be any interest in making them for Mopars.


Rich H.





Re: Head gaskets, pre-flattened copper wire ring [Re: ZIPPY] #2898238
03/11/21 05:57 PM
03/11/21 05:57 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,176
Apollo, PA.
B1MAXX Offline
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I have used the copper wire ones on Chevy's several times....... still leaves a mark.

Re: Head gaskets, pre-flattened copper wire ring [Re: ZIPPY] #2898384
03/12/21 11:28 AM
03/12/21 11:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,293
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline
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Zippy -- regarding the material of the inside wire ring, it really doesn't matter if its copper or steel...as long as its pre-flattened...and ALL the Fel-Pro Performance designed head gaskets with the internal combustion ring eventually became pre-flattened in production. There is a science to all this in design features.... you can trust Fel-Pro. The Cometic MLS are fine, as well, but very expensive.

As for re-using any gasket, ever, the installer bares that burden and risk. Once the gasket becomes compressed, it will never re-seal as it originally did upon the first installment... regardless of gasket company, design, material, etc.


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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